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Last night, @mkarrett and @russell did a periscope about wanting “Justice for Joyce”. One of the things Melissa said made me think about Mason and this situation. She said “No one deserves a beating like that”. This is where her and I disagree. There are people in the world, evil people, that in my opinion, DO deserve a beating like that. Rapists, pedophiles, sadistic murderers…these are people that deserve to get beaten to death.
We know NOTHING about the reason(s) that Mason did what he did. Most people jumped aboard the “Poor Joyce/Mason is evil” train, which is fine, because at face value, that’s what it appears to be. We know that nothing in this world should be taken at face value, but we’re assuming things about Mason and his choices. What if Joyce wasn’t really the person that we thought she was and that some of us met? What if she was the evil one, who did evil things? What if she’s the reason their daughter was subjected to things within the OSDM? What if she’s the reason their child might be permanently scarred? When Mason met with @chelsea, there was a question she asked about how involved his ex was in the OSDM and he said “VERY”. If she was very involved, then who knows what they had her do and what she was capable of. As a father, Mason might have seen things that led him down this _path and it could be justified. We just don’t know. It’s premature to act like the judge and jury when we have no facts.
We need to ask the questions. We might not ever get answers, but the more we ask, the more they know that we’re looking more closely at EVERYTHING.
So Mason, why did you do it? Was this just something you wanted to do? Did Joyce “deserve” it? Did you realize you were doing it? Do you remember it? Do you have headaches?
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@mike It’s not Joyce’s responsibility to prove that she didn’t deserve to be murdered.
How do you know someone is a rapist, pedophile, or sadistic murderer that it is now “acceptable” to murder sadistically? Because someone accuses them of it? Because someone implies that they might have been a “bad person”? Because someone believes it very strongly? Who decides that? You? Mason?
Mason is a fucking lunatic. Would you be willing to put your head under his baseball bat and trust that he’s going to “give you what you deserve”?
What kinda fucked up logic would let you believe that it’s OK to murder people, because maybe she was a bitch, and he had a really good reason. You don’t start from the premise that the murder was acceptable. If you’re going to rob someone of their existence, you’d better have a good fucking reason, a better a reason than “Maybe she was bad.”
I’m all for knowing why Mason did it, but to pretend that “maybe he had a good reason”, with literally all the evidence pointing in the opposite direction, is just ludicrous.
I don’t care what Joyce did, or didn’t do. I don’t care if she was evil, or murdered an entire convent filled with nuns. Arbitrarily executing her is evil, and wrong too.
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@winstonsmith – You’re right, it’s not her responsibility. It’s ours and it seems like people have already made up their minds about it.
How do you know someone is a rapist, pedophile, or sadistic murderer that it is now “acceptable” to murder sadistically?
When it’s proven.
What kinda fucked up logic would let you believe that it’s OK to murder people
We don’t know, which is my point. I’m saying that if someone did something horrible to someone I love and care about, they’re dead. This isn’t internet, tough guy behind a keyboard talk. If someone was to hurt my mom for example, they’re dead. That’s it. At no point did I say Joyce’s murder was justified by having a reason of “she was bad”. The whole point of this thread was to ask the “why”.
with literally all the evidence
What evidence? We have none.
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We need to ask the questions. We might not ever get answers, but the more we ask, the more they know that we’re looking more closely at EVERYTHING.
Yea… This might be something we haven’t mastered yet. Let’s take a moment and not respond emotionally and try to look at this situation coldly for like an hour. And then we can all go back to being emotional.
We’ve attacked and been angry, but we haven’t been asking the next question. I feel like there has been a fear of asking these questions that are floating in the air because of the “don’t side with the psycho” mentality. What if that was intentional on some level. It would be a smart move on Mason’s part. “I do this, they won’t pry.” I think there are some biases that are preventing us from digging because we are afraid, which means there’s info hiding under the surface. And we need to be digging!
So, let’s dig.
– Joyce’s connection to the OSDM was a “PR rep”, right? Any chance that was a lie? Do we have evidence that she did anything else within that organization?
– What horrible things do we know of that Joyce has done? How can we connect them back to Mason, etc.?
– Is there any chance that killing Joyce was simply a way to get us completely distracted from whatever else is going on? -
So, in the face of a complete and total lack of evidence to suggest, or imply that Joyce deserved to be murdered, you start out by assuming that the murderer might have had a good reason? This sounds a little like one of those “on many sides” kinda deals, ya know what I mean?
Gee, we already made up our minds, and decided that Mason was a bad guy because he fucking murdered someone with a baseball bat. I hope we’re not jumping to any conclusions there! Maybe he had a really good reason! Maybe she had a fly on her face! Maybe she did something bad too! So what? Murder is wrong.
I’m no fan of Joyce, but what happened to her is just plain *wrong*, and *immoral*. Period. The burden of proof justifying such an action lies on the murderer, not the murderee, or the witnesses. It’s hard to imagine a scenario in which he’d actually have a sensible reason for beating her over the head with a baseball bat.
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As an intellectual concept, I hear you on the “benefit of the doubt” thing, @mike – but that take requires one to intentionally ignore a slew of other things Mason has done that give us a real sense of his intent and overall character.
These include, but are not limited to:
-Manipulating @kevin into asking Joyce to expose herself, knowing that Kevin had affection for Joyce.
-Selecting @wanda102, another Joyce ally, to bring to the beating site and witness the aftermath firsthand.
-Calling me to taunt me with Joyce on the line for my bday.
-Harassing @coryphella for some 9 days straight, to the point where she wasn’t sleeping.
-Giving Joyce a phone so we all had to read the last thoughts of a dying woman.
-Calling me with a fake-out offer to help save her, even though one was never in the cards.
-Literally showing up at @coryphella’s home in Minnesota, and having some sort of interaction with her that we still know nothing about – other than the fact that Mason doesn’t want us to know.
-Calling you, Michelle, and me to taunt us while we were deeply concerned for our missing friend.
Even if I bought that Joyce deserved what happened to her, which I don’t, Mason has shown himself to be a cruel sadist and manipulator. This undercuts anything noble we might try to convince ourselves that he was doing.
We already have all the “evidence.” So with all due respect, he can go fuck himself.
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An eye for an eye? How does that make you any better than the person you condemn? There are so many what ifs, and a lot of evidence that is largely circumstancial… Of course you can build a case on that. People do it every day and find others guilty as a result.
I want to know the why behind everything “that lunatic” does. It goes without saying that I want to *understand* Mason, I wouldn’t have put so much time and effort into analysing him if I didn’t think it was worth something.
I believe in justice for crimes committed. I do not believe anyone has the right to take a life. A murder is a murder, no matter if you believe yourself to be on the side of what is “right”. I most certainly do not believe in vigilante justice of the kind that seems to be proposed by many at the current time. That kind of talk is sickening to me, especially when it comes from the mouths of those I consider rational people…
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you start out by assuming that the murderer might have had a good reason
Not at all, I’m trying to figure out the “why”. Because people in this world do deserve beatings. I never said Joyce deserved it, but it’s possible she did. We just don’t know. I don’t expect
That’s fine that we disagree. That’s one of the beautiful things about this space. We can have discussions. You have your opinions and I have mine.
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@mike This may surprise you. I AGREE with you. Buuuuttttttttttt…….
Which is why I kept my comments last night brief… I will continue to rely on my friends, hopefully we can protect one a other if we need protecting. As far as violence goes, you and I do have slightly differing opinions, but I see your point… and yeah, you know I have wanted to unleash a bit of anger on a few people recently, but silly me seem to always defaults to the nice guy approach first, right? (You seem to encourage me sometimes too let go of that, I know, because it isn’t very useful at times. I appreciate your wisdom.)
We don’t know Mason’s personal reasons for doing what he did, I agree with that. But, come on, you gotta admit they way he is acting does NOT lend itself to sympathy or understanding or the feeling that we should pat him on the back with a friendly, “You do you, boo… we get you.” YOU seem to be taking him at face value that he’s in the right. Yet, others are in the wrong for taking him at face value that he is in the wrong??? Two way street, buddy.
Heck, yeah, Joyce is one big huge freaking question mark of a person. But, listen up… Joyce is the ONLY person in the LUST universe other than Sabrina to treat me with any respect. That means something to me on a personal level. However, you are correct, I should… as well as others… be questioning her motives and what led to her end.
YES, Mason’s _path might be justified… but he has offered NO evidence that his methods are.
I believe the point you make about the need for more questions is exactly what Melissa / @mkarrett is pointing at. Stop with the snarkiness amongst ourselves and look at the bigger picture. Remember… long before Mason and Joyce showed up, there were efforts made to pit everyone in this community against one another… to compete for attention. MAYBE we are seeing why… they (whoever THEY might be) do not want us all focusing on working together and agreeing on methods of investigation… because bothersome individual splinters can be removed and discarded… but a single strong tree cannot…
Okay… that metaphor sounded better in my head……..
@mike, you raise good points. But… you don’t make your case very well.
Mason’s actions “COULD be justified” but the jury is still out on that point.
I do side with you on this… the answers to the questions you ask are becoming more important each day. -
Repeating myself here, but even if Joyce had done awful things and was deep inside OSDM, I believe that would have made her an excellent candidate for Briarberg’s “deprogramming”. Coupled with the fact that she was the mother of Mason’s daughter and a public face of OSDM, why wouldn’t you want to bring her over to your side? Instead, whether she was too deep to be deprogrammed or Michelle and/or Mason had some kind of grudge against her, they beat her within an inch of her life and then let her die over the course of a week. As others have said, we don’t really have firm evidence of any awful things Joyce had done other than be a PR rep for OSDM, which admittedly has major issues. But if it is as cult like as it appears to be, she was a victim in her own right.
Is there any chance that killing Joyce was simply a way to get us completely distracted from whatever else is going on?
I’m honestly not sure here. Briarberg has said they want to take down OSDM and then with the shit Mason pulled, they’ve drawn all eyes to them instead. We don’t know if they sanctioned his actions (but that email that went out to those who met with them implied they did), but not a great way to help their cause in any case.
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“What horrible things do we know of that Joyce has done? How can we connect them back to Mason, etc.?”
At least recent info reveals have shown that she attended at least one retreat if not more. I would also jump to the assumption that Mason while he was a part of OSDM attended the retreats. Whether the streams crossed there cant be determined, but it’s a good bet that they were both at a retreat at one point and were wrapped into whatever bad actions happened there.
On the subject of emotionally jumping down Mason’s throat, I can only give the perspective as a new comer. As far as I’m concerned both Joyce and Mason seem like evil people. I totally get that we don’t have the full context of the story, but will it matter. Mason did subject his daughter to a dead body that she may only know as “mommy.” As well as take her in the car with a decomposing body long enough for her to remark on the smell. So, yes he may have had his reasons that may be relatable and make him more human, but his response and actions following the murder are really what make him twisted in my mind.
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Hey @mike I respectfully understand your position on this one. You’re going to have your opinions and I’m going to have mine which is fine. IF Joyce was a horrible person and did stuff that was just unbelievably awful I get it why some folks would just want to take matter into their own hands. What seems to me the problem here is that it’s just that–an IF. We never got to hear both sides completely–Mason and Michelle just took things in their own hands (no pun) and dealt with things they saw fit and we’ll never really truly know if this is just. I was not a fan of Joyce either but does any human being deserve this? Do we deserve the aftermath as well like @bcbishop has been itemizing?
I guess this stems for me personally that I’d rather much see a horrible person, committing crime, go to trial and have justice served. I echo @blondie here that I don’t personally believe in the death penalty*. What I should clarify is that I’m not calling for vigilante justice. I know this statement has a ton of caveats but I’ll just toss it out there: ideally, we need more eyes as Mason and Michelle need to be turned in. What they did is not justice, not to me at least.
*let’s not get into that debate here though ’cause oh god, just no.
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@mike I don’t always agree with you, but when I do, I do.
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I believe in justice for crimes committed. I do not believe anyone has the right to take a life. A murder is a murder, no matter if you believe yourself to be on the side of what is “right”. I most certainly do not believe in vigilante justice of the kind that seems to be proposed by many at the current time.
@blondie… I couldn’t agree more with you. I don’t believe in one person becoming judge, jury, and executioner. Even as a mom, it would destroy me if anything happened to my children. But, I would want justice. Justice does not mean murder. And, yes, sometimes, justice is blind. I just don’t believe justice should be taken in the hands of one or two individuals.I do know Mason is a sick individual. A few of us were pawns in his sadistic game yesterday. And, I think what is disturbing about Mason is how much pleasure he gets in torturing individuals. Maybe, in his mind, he’s seeking justice but he’s also appears to enjoy the aftermath of his destruction. He taunts. He’s proud. He needs to be stopped.
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@blondie I had to look up “nosy parker” <3
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Ha ha @mkarrett – I figured Mason would understand seeing as he dated an English woman ?
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This is such a great discussion. Grateful to all of you for talking these things out.
@blondie and @michelle, you both raised some really good points that had me thinking about things, and I realized I hadn’t fully explained my stance on some of this.I’m normally an anti-violence and pro-justice system person. I’m not into the death penalty and personally think it’s a lousy deterrent (NOT looking to start that convo though, as @mkarrett recommended above). But they say that you often don’t know how you feel about certain things until you find yourself in the middle of them, and that’s what I’ve found with Mason.
He may have reasons. Even as a TKTK-path, I’m sure he has some sort of internal logic. That would certainly be useful information to have in hand. But that’s all secondary to me.
He has killed people I developed an affinity for. He has tortured dear friends. He has pledged to never stop. So I find my thoughts turning away from my more reasoned, idealistic points of view.
This is not an abstract construct. Mason is a clear and present danger to myself and people I care about. I do not care about his reasons. I do not care about giving him a trial. (Knowing what kind of broad reach the presidential election-swaying OSDM has, I wouldn’t be surprised if Briarberg had the pull to rig a trial anyway.)
I want to eliminate the threat, and one of us doing it personally is the surest way to do that. If that means I cede some sort of moral high ground… okay. Moral superiority may make for a nice eulogy, but it isn’t going to save any of us. Taking action will.
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@bcbishop SO I’m guessing if it came down to it, you’d have no problems wrapping your hands around Mason’s neck and ending him III style?
For me, even if I knew it was the right thing to do….I don’t think I’d be able to feel the same after doing something like that. No matter how I try to rationalize it, I don’t think I’d be able to ever go back to who I used to be. I understand where you’re coming from, Bryan. I know that if any of you guys were in fatal danger and I somehow had the means to prevent it, I’d do whatever needed to be done to protect you guys. But I think I’d be permanently changed as a result in some way that I can’t fully explain right now primarily because I can’t even grasp the right words for it.
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@mumumusings I don’t think it would be without cost or personal consequence. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do.
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100% what Mumu said ❤
I think I explained before how I would stand in the way of someone intending to attack another person and defend myself and them by any means necessary. That is one thing.
But heading out with murderous intent, calling for blood, no matter if it is in the name of “justice”, makes you as much of a fucking monster as your intended target.
And, in case it wasn’t clear, I would stand in your way if that situation arose.
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Well said @mumumusings this is exactly what I’m thinking. @bcbishop hypothetically if the gears are in motion for…whatever you desire really think about the personal consequences. Yes, I’m biased because of personal beliefs but I’m also telling you this because you’re my friend.
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Are we still giving Mason the benefit of the doubt? This sounds a lot like blaming the victim. “If she was murdered, maybe she deserved it.” I’m really uncomfortable with that. It’s a slippery slope to “If she was raped, maybe she deserved it.” I’m not afraid of Mason, but I’m a little afraid of Mike now.
Also, @mike, I hope you meant child molester, not pedophile. Because I’d be really afraid of you if you thought someone should be beaten to death just for having an attraction to children.
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@remrelganaps I can say without any doubt that @mike would never say a woman deserves to be raped. He would never victim blame and say she was asking for it. Perhaps that example was taking it a bit far.
I didn’t know Joyce. I’m not condoning her past actions at all. But, I can also understand where someone would think she got what she deserved. She was part of the huge problem that continues to have life within the OSDM. Atrocities were committed within it’s walls.
I don’t believe I’ve heard Mike say he was giving Mason the benefit of the doubt or that he was siding with him. What he is doing is asking us to be demanding and question before making assumptions of guilt or innocence. He said there are people out there who do deserve that kind of beating but he did not say that Joyce did. He asked “what if she was the evil one?”
There are questions we need to ask. But, we also shouldn’t be biased when asking them. We need to find out what her role was in driving Mason to this sort of action. Was it personal or was he acting for the greater good? We need to ask questions about both of them and not just Mason or Michelle. But, for what it’s worth, I think they all got hit a little too many times with the evil stick.
And.. might people be more quick to judge Mason as the more villainous one because we’ve seen it first hand on video. I don’t know, maybe behind closed doors Joyce was a sadistic, whip cracking, torturous bitch.
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Forgot I had this. It was a Christmas present the year that a bunch of ICM agents defected and formed Endeavor. With my name on it and everything.
It has sentimental value, but maybe I’ll auction it off to those of you who felt closest to her and donate it to a worth cause. You can give it a name, like, “Joyce”.
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@larry just make sure it’s going into the right hands.. don’t want that thing to be used against ya.
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@addisonborn All I know is that things happen for a reason. I remembered it. I posted its existence. What happens to it from here is already fated.
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Can I just…maybe…point something out here?
One person here is well on his way to committing this “vigilante justice” y’all don’t want. And for – how many months? – SEVERAL months now has been encouraged to embrace that part of himself. And in the past month has been given a target and encouragement.
Coincidence?
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@coryphella that’s a good point…you and Bryan are close pals. Do you think recent events in your life and recent events in @bcbishop’s might be Mason trying to drive a wedge between you two? Or even trying to isolate you from us all?
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Recent events like…Mason showing up at my door and Mason killing Joyce and Mason taunting @bcbishop on his birthday?
I don’t see how it could be driving a wedge between us but…I am Jon Snow. I no longer know anything. Seriously.
I think that if enough pressure is placed on Bryan he might actually crack and I’m worried. I think that I mean more to him than Joyce did. I was on the phone with Bryan right before the FB live video happened and it wasn’t a happy conversation, he was telling me to take a break from Lust and I was telling him no. Instead of discussing whether or not a dead woman deserved her fate you might want to help him.-
I think we are trying to help him @coryphella – by talking him out of a course of action that he could not only come to regret, but that he may not even survive to regret…
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@blondie – good, that’s all I’m saying – I just worry I don’t see a ton of that and we talk about people deserving things and Bryan taking things into his own hands and whatnot. It seems like that’s what he believes his _path is.
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Yeah, @coryphella makes a good point here. Seems awful SUS that so many have tried to push Bryan to embrace his anger and this reason falls into his lap. Maaaayyybe that’s a thing we should be paying attention to?
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After listening to the podcast, I understand where you’re coming from a little better, @mike. But, just to clarify, it was never my intention (or anyone else’s, I’m sure) to imply that you’re pro-rape. So, apologies if that was your impression.
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@remrelganaps – No worries at all and thank you for saying that 🙂
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