Are you happy?

This topic contains 58 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by  Lauren Bello 4 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #24371
     JoyceCarlberg 
    Participant

    Mason laughed, he actually laughed. I can barely swallow and he laughed when I managed to ask if he was keeping me alive to bring you in.

    He knew. He’s smarter than me, the smarmy bastard always was. All this time, he knew no one was coming. You wouldn’t save me.

    You wanted this.

    If I die, you can martyr me and have another sacrifice.

    Even better still, you’ll have another beautiful round of your precious reactions.

    If I live or if I escape then we both know there is absolutely no guarantee you won’t properly finish the job.

    His horrible voice just repeats in my head, “Stupid, broken Joy-cie, Horace will just murder you himself to frame us.”

    That’s why you are seeing this, Mason actually gave me my phone and told me to do my best. I suppose, this is it. In the end, it’s not much at all really is it?

    I have no one left to say goodbye to.

    He says I’ve been dead since she first hit me. She had a good laugh herself yesterday, she said the blood was a pretty hue now and brought out my cheekbones, “well, what’s left of them.”

    I suppose I am thinking about all of this because I used to wonder if the others took pleasure in the pain we caused to complete the rites and rituals, I never did. I did it for the greater good. I know that now and maybe it can bring me some form of peace. I don’t know if I believe in the greater good anymore though. I don’t know if I believe anything will happen at all. I don’t know if it was worth any of this. If this is the world we create for a savior, then what will that savior actually be? I’m too tired not to admit that a large part of me hopes that all of you will all die alone and confused too. That is probably what brings me the most peace.

    Michelle may have broken my body but everyone should know that this blood, my broken cheek bone lifting blood, not unlike all the blood that I shed I suppose, is on all of our hands. We are all guilty in the end and no matter what we do, we are all just pieces that wind the clock.

    Actually, there might be one piece left for me after all.

  • #24373
     Julie R Goldstein 
    Participant

    Your sacrifice in the name of Anoch will be remembered Joyce. In the end, all we have is our savior. He is the Alpha and the Omega, and he will set us all free.

    Glory Be!

    Sleep well child…

  • #24374
     Nicole Mae 
    Participant

    Joyce we want to help. There are so many members who are willing to be by your side at this time, even more who would be willing to come get you from wherever they have stashed you away. Just show us how to find you.

  • #24375
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg: We are here. Tell us how we can help.

    (Everyone else: I just received a phone call from Joyce. She was upset, crying, voice weak. Said “Bryan, I need your help,” and then her voice broke up into hitching sobs. Couldn’t understand what she was saying, and the call dropped.)

    (She also said, “I’m sorry.”)

  • #24376
     Maranda 
    Participant

    Joyce… I’m sorry. There’s been a lot of unsavory actions and failings on every side of this, including you and us participants. But nobody should be assaulted and toyed with like that. We’re all human in the end so from one human to another I’m sorry.

  • #24377
     Nicole Mae 
    Participant

    Michelle and Mason… This shit means war. I hope you’re ready for your own personal dusk and darkness.

  • #24378
     Violet 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg I am SO sorry this happened to you. Nobody wanted this. Please…reach out again if you can. There are some who can get to you. You aren’t alone. We can help you.

  • #24379
     Anonymous

    Let us know where you are and we’ll give you a helping hand @joycecarlberg

  • #24380
     Cristen 
    Participant

    Joyce, I’m so sorry. Of course we want to help you. I didn’t want to see you like that, none of us did. Mason may be smart but he’s still a little shit, and there’s more of us than him.

  • #24381
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg We will find you. We will do whatever we can. But there’s one other thing I want you to know.

    I will fucking kill Mason and Michelle myself for what they’ve done to you.

  • #24382
     Winston Smith 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg. Fuck those motherfuckers. Drop us a location and one of us will come and get you. Mason and Michelle ain’t gonna do *fuck all* about it, that baseball bat isn’t any good against us.

    I got a whole medicine cabinet full of bandaids and a whole closet full of whoop-ass you can borrow to exact your righteous retribution.

  • #24384
     Shaun 
    Participant

    We are happy you are alive @joycecarlberg. You’ve always been straight with us and we love you for it.

    Tell us how we can help.. and what that one piece left for you is.

  • #24386
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg Mason just called, offering me “one chance” to save you.

    I am sending someone to the address he provided. Please… hang on.

  • #24387
     Brad Ruwe 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg You know I’m not your biggest fan. By a long shot. BUT, I do hope you’re OK. I’m sure my opinions on violence are documented in my file. I absolutely believe there’s a time and a place for violence. That was not it IMO.

  • #24388
     Sean 
    Moderator

    Move quickly, Agent of Bryan

  • #24389
     Kevin Hsu 
    Participant

    Whoever goes, be safe, be rational.

  • #24390
     Candace 
    Participant

    Hang in there @joycecarlberg you’re not alone. Don’t give up

  • #24391
     Anonymous

    Fingers crossed for whoever’s being sent into the lion’s den and also for Joyce.

    Adding a baseball bat to my burn-it-down bag.

  • #24392
     Chloe 
    Participant

    I hope you, or whoever your sending, manage to find and help her @bcbishop. Putting differences aside, I really don’t like to see anyone hurt.

  • #24394
     Lia 
    Participant

    @lazysmartperson Historically, we’re VERY irrational people. For Joyce’s sake, let’s hope tonight is an exception.

  • #24395
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    Hang tight, @joycecarlberg. We’re coming.

  • #24396
     Kevin 
    Participant

    Echoing everyone. Stay strong @joycecarlberg.

  • #24397
     Addison 
    Participant

    Fuck this. Go mystery person, go!!!!!

  • #24399
     Drew Huntley 
    Participant

    I hope you realize that none of us truelly wish harm upon you. We may be smarmy at times, bit we are good people at heart.
    I hope those on the way can get you the help you so deeply need.

  • #24400
     Jackie 
    Participant

    @joycecarlberg

    Girl, may your vengeance be swift.

    @bcbishop, get ’em.

  • #24402
     Shaun 
    Participant

    Secret Agent Man @thebuz is in Hacienda Heights trying to save @joycecarlberg!

    https://www.periscope.tv/BuzDanger/1OdKroRnedQGX (Periscope of him waiting…)

  • #24403
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    Despite having left the experience recently, @thebuz leaped into action tonight in order to help save Joyce.

    He is currently at the location Mason gave. Mason is not there.

    I have emailed Briarberg. No response.

    I have a bad feeling about this.

  • #24405
     Violet 
    Participant

    oh no…this can’t be good 🙁

  • #24406
     Maranda 
    Participant

    We are not the ones in control. This could very well be a futile exercise.

  • #24407
     Shaun 
    Participant

    @thebuz thinks we got played and Joyce is dead: https://www.periscope.tv/w/1OyJAryRrgqxb

  • #24408
     Chelsea 
    Participant

    Yea. You got played. There was never going to be a chance to save her. That was a tarp if I’ve ever seen one.

  • #24409
     Russell 
    Participant

    If I die, you can martyr me and have another sacrifice.

    History has proven that trying to control the “message” of any martyr that is forced into creation or chosen by any community… that’s a tricky thing to pull off. Manipulating a group’s passionate response to anything is an iffy plan.

    If tonight is the final act for Joyce, that may be a spark that grows into a fire that no one can control. Even if they think they can………..

  • #24410
     Meghan Mayhem 
    Participant

    They want emotional reactions. Like the ending scene of Seven. Do not become wrath. Stay calm. Destroy them but be smart about it.

  • #24411
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    To clarify Buz’s Periscope: he did not see any evidence that Joyce was dead. He was spitballing.

    This whole thing began with Mason saying he was going to provide me, personally, an opportunity to save Joyce. He provided a corner to head to. But whoops, I’m in Toronto. “My bad,” Mason said.

    At that moment, I reached out to some people that could help, because despite the chance that this would end in nothing, trying to help someone was — and remains — the right thing to do in my eyes. Always. @thebuz agreed.

    In the end, it looks like this was Mason trolling, just like he trolled @coryphella earlier in the evening. That’s because he’s a cruel sadistic fuck, if people haven’t been keeping score.

    So… what now? As @wanda102 pointed out in Slack, several characters have encouraged me to embrace my anger and my “violence” over the course of this experience. The prostitute, Noah, even Joyce to an extent. On one hand, this feels like a part of that. On the other hand, it was a chance to do the right thing, even in the face of certain defeat. Manipulation to cause a reaction — is Briarberg collecting data on me now? — but also a character test. And I’d like to think I will always make the decision I made tonight, no matter the outcome.

    I’m also going to fully fucking embrace and enjoy causing Mason Silver bodily harm when the time comes. And @joycecarlberg, if you are still out there… we will not stop looking for you.

  • #24412
     Chelsea 
    Participant

    Yea. See. This scares the shit out of me. I’m not a big fan of crowds in general, but angry crowds are the most terrifying things ever. This crowd is the scariest thing we’ve seen here so far. As others have said, you can be angry if that’s what you feel you need to be, but be smart.

  • #24413
     Violet 
    Participant

    If tonight is the final act for Joyce, that may be a spark that grows into a fire that no one can control. Even if they think they can………..

    Fuck yes @russell!!

    To quote the indomitable Mr. Nancy (American Gods), “Angry gets shit done!” But @meghanmayhem is right…we need to be smart.

  • #24414
     Kevin 
    Participant

    I suppose, this is it.

    Considering the circumstances, @joycecarlberg, this was better than your best. I recognize that you’re probably gone now though, but Mason is going to pay for all of this bullshit.

    I have no one left to say goodbye to.

    I’m glad to see this wasn’t true. Plenty of people, even those who didn’t like Joyce at all, stepped in to express their support and/or desire to aid in getting her out of that cruel fucker’s hands.

    In the end, it looks like this was Mason trolling, just like he trolled @coryphella earlier in the evening. That’s because he’s a cruel sadistic fuck, if people haven’t been keeping score.

    This is the clearest thing about Mason. In every instance he’s dealt with someone, his long term goal has never been in their interests at all. He toys with people long enough so that when he flips the switch, they’ll suffer. Trust him even the slightest amount at your own peril.

  • #24416
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    Woke up this morning to see the Facebook song, “She’s Gone.” I’m not giving up hope, but I know how these things work, too.

    Rereading Joyce’s last post, I find myself thinking what she would have wanted in the big-picture scheme of all this. She believed in the greater work being done, but seemed to have lost her faith along the way. The ends didn’t justify the means, it would seem. If anything, it sounds like she found the methods being used to raise a savior made the world not worth saving.

    I need to think on this. And then I need to call my wife and let her know that Joyce might be dead.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Bryan Bishop.
  • #24421
     Andrew Kasch 
    Participant

    Joyce isn’t the first and certainly won’t be the last to go “missing.”

  • #24425
     Nicole Mae 
    Participant

    True, @kasch. But Andy and Otis weren’t tenderized the last time we saw then when they went ‘missing’

  • #24427
     Lawrence Meyers 
    Participant

    She’s more valuable to them alive than dead, @bcbishop

  • #24435
     Shaun 
    Participant

    “She’s Gone” but not necessarily dead. She will rise from the ashes like a Phoenix I can feel it.

  • #24447
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    Reading @chelsea‘s recent thread, I have to say I’m saddened by the utter lack of empathy — not to mention reading comprehension. (Though I realize the latter is probably an intentional choice.)

    @macbethinabathtub

    In her most vulnerable moment she admitted to bald ambition, doing what she thought was necessary to rise through the ranks of the OSDM.

    Interesting point of view. If only it weren’t refuted by the words of @joycecarlberg herself:

    I suppose I am thinking about all of this because I used to wonder if the others took pleasure in the pain we caused to complete the rites and rituals, I never did. I did it for the greater good. I know that now and maybe it can bring me some form of peace. I don’t know if I believe in the greater good anymore though. I don’t know if I believe anything will happen at all. I don’t know if it was worth any of this. If this is the world we create for a savior, then what will that savior actually be?

    The important takeaways in that paragraph are the fact that she was acting for what she thought was the greater good, and that she thought her actions would bring about a new savior for humanity.

    Joyce Carlberg is/was, like so many people, doing what she thought was best for everyone — even though she disagreed with some of the tactics being used. That’s somebody doing things that they actually felt uncomfortable with, because they thought it would help others. That’s called selflessness, not ambition.

    We can discuss whether that was misguided or not, and we can discuss whether she was a flippant jerk or a delightfully sarcastic wit, but let’s at least give (what may have been) her final post the respect of reading it.

    And I’d also like to say something about basic empathy — not for Joyce, but for our fellow participants. A lot of people hated Joyce, liked to call her names, and now make jokes about baseball bats as if that constitutes being clever. But the problem is Joyce Carlberg isn’t a cartoon, and she isn’t a fictional character. She’s a real person, that some of us met with and talked with, multiple times.

    Some of us even had her call us after she was beaten to shit by a pair of psychopaths.

    So the jokes don’t come at the expense of Joyce, who likely can’t read them. They’re at the expense of your fellow participants. Even though most of us all claim to be friends.

    Making jokes about Sentinel being beat to shit would be poor form, in my opinion, because it would disrespect those that cared about and believed in him. Making jokes about the things that could have been done to Addison while under the control of the helmet would be poor form, in my opinion, because they would disrespect those that cared about and believed in her.

    The same is true for Joyce Carlberg. Or anyone, really.

    Now, I certainly don’t expect everybody to be all kumbaya around this joint, and I’ve especially learned I shouldn’t expect a whole lot of decorum or baseline empathy from Team BOS. Y’all seem to think it’s hilarious to poke people that actually make themselves vulnerable. I get it; I went to high school, too. But at a certain point, it should be said: that kind of shit is hurtful, uncool, and actually counter to the mission BOS claims to be pursuing. If you really want to take down who you think the bad guys are, and if you really want to bring more people around to your point of view, you might want to start with actually thinking or caring about other’s perspectives.

    To some of you, it was just a random name on a board that was beaten with that bat. To others, she was a friend.

    And to clarify: We’re in a topsy turvy upside-down world right now, and Horace himself could pull off a Joyce mask to reveal it was him all along. But that wouldn’t change the truth of what I’ve written above, because everybody that was upset or hurt by what happened to Joyce felt those feelings legitimately. So let’s try to respect each other.

  • #24448
     M. 
    Participant

    This @bcbishop. 1000x this.

    You’ve pulled me back in dammit. I’ve lurked trying to find the point of reentry. You’ve sparked a fire in me because one of the things I’ve been saying from the beginning was that this was a ploy to tear people apart, to divide a community. The things I’ve seen here and on Slack, talk about being thrown back into high school. Fuck that shit. When you watch from afar you begin to see things from a different perspective. I’ve only been eyeing what’s been going on for a few weeks but, damn, there’s definitely a “mean girl” atmosphere.

    @bcbishop I didn’t get the opportunity to know @joycecarlberg. But, I will help you avenge her death/bat beating. When they periscoped her beating, I was horrified. I don’t find anything interesting or adorable about Mason. He’s a sick individual who needs to be stopped.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 9 months ago by  M..
  • #24450
     Chris 
    Participant

    @bcbishop

    “The retreats break you. I asked to do it. To advance. To move up. I knew that they would psychologicially torture me, but they did things that I wasn’t ready for. Dark things. Sexual things. Yes, Mason, fucking crazy fucking things.”

    From our experiences with Joyce, I would take this as the deeper truth more readily than a typed forum statement– her favorite medium for OSDM propaganda and obfuscation. Speaking of which, you and I are definitely interpreting that passage differently. The most important takeaway from her confession is not that she was doing this for the greater good, it’s that she was doing this for a greater good that in her mind was clearly contingent on the return of Anoch or whatever lies Horace has been peddling. And to her and the OSDM we are chum (yes, food, as @joycecarlberg put it) to achieve that end. She was a true believer, which yes is sad and pitiable, but does not excuse what she’s done and what her tap dancing has allowed others to do.

    As every one of us speaking out against Joyce said every time we brought it up, the violence is horrible and we don’t agree with it. We have basic empathy. But we also don’t want to waste Buz and everyone else’s time canonizing her as the spark that will start the revolution when she did nothing to deserve that. Unless you’ll be fighting against the OSDM to honor her dying wish:

    I’m too tired not to admit that a large part of me hopes that all of you will all die alone and confused too. That is probably what brings me the most peace.

    That’s so Joyce.

  • #24451
     Lawrence Meyers 
    Participant

    @bcbishop well put.

    Ascribing purpose or intent to behavior is rarely as clear as it appears. We all behave in ways we don’t even understand ourselves. We want to assign and judge individuals and their actions because we think it gives us greater understanding of life. It’s a lot easier to say that this person, their philosophy/ideology is misguided or wrong/right.

    I once met a woman of a certain age in Palisades Park in Santa Monica. Turns out she was Jewish, born in Austria in the mid-1930’s. Once it became clear what Hitler was up to, her family got on a train headed for Switzerland, despite not having papers that would let them into the country.

    The train was stopped at the border and two SS officers boarded. They pulled all the Jews off the train, including this woman and her parents…

    ….and the SS officers gave them papers to get into Switzerland. When her parents asked why, they said, “Not all of us believe in what Hitler is doing”.

  • #24452
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @michelle I’m so excited that you’re back!! You have been missed. 🙂

    I look forward to Mason hunting with you.

  • #24455
     Lauren Bello 
    Moderator

    I’ve especially learned I shouldn’t expect a whole lot of decorum or baseline empathy from Team BOS. Y’all seem to think it’s hilarious to poke people that actually make themselves vulnerable.

    @bcbishop – I have a few thoughts on this.

    Joyce – victim, abuser, or both?

    I too have seen sentiments that Joyce either 1) deserved what she got, or 2) could not possibly be a victim since she was also complicit in a system that hurt others. I disagree.

    I have also seen efforts to canonize her since her death. I disagree.

    There is no clear dichotomy between “victim” and “abuser”. One can be both.

    Joyce was both.

    Joyce served a system that required her to do bad things and to defend bad things. She was the spokesperson who prevented the world from knowing about atrocities. She bears on her shoulders the weight of the evil that she has defended and permitted to live on. She says that she wondered about the pain that she caused, but it is clear that she did not care enough to investigate until she went through that pain herself. We can want to hold her accountable for this. I do.

    That said, it is possible to be complicit in a system that hurts others, and to also be a victim of that system.

    Have you ever read letters from two hundred years ago, in which women spoke against women’s rights to receive higher education? It’s incredible and disturbing. They are simultaneously oppressed and oppressors. And that’s what Joyce is, or was. She was the voice and defense of the oppressors, and she was their victim.

    It’s ok to still be angry at Joyce. She was no saint. She did damage. She is not magically excused of all responsibility just because she was also victimized. But personally, I’m angrier at the system and the culture that put her there.

    I suspect that we can all agree on that, no matter where our allegiance lies.

    “Team BOS” and Empathy

    @superstar and @blondie and I had a conversation on Slack that may have gotten lost in the threads. It was about how very human it is to go along with things we don’t believe in. It was in the context of sympathy for Joyce. I am placing it here not only because I think it was a worthwhile conversation to read, but because it involved two members of, as you call us, “Team BOS”. It is empathetic, and does not mock vulnerability.

    It is in response to someone who said, re: Joyce, “Compliance=cowardice”. This person was not a member of BOS.

    Blondie
    Compliance may be cowardice but I doubt any of the actors came into this wanting to be a hero… They were just looking for a job…

    Me
    I think it’s typical coercion. They think they might want it – then once they see what it’s really like they want to back out but don’t know how under intense pressure and scrutiny – then once they’ve given in once, it’s held over them.

    Superstar
    It’s just hard to imagine any kind of blackmail/coercion being enough to make someone “willingly” participate in the sort of stuff they (kinda sorta) describe. Maybe I’m naive.

    Me
    Remember the psychological study where, with enough people claiming that the smaller line was bigger, the subjects found themselves agreeing? Denying the evidence of their own eyes because since everyone else was going along they thought they must be wrong? I think there’s probably an element of that.

    Superstar
    Good point. Scary point.

    Blondie
    Recreated that experiment once… Same results. Also see it regularly in day to day life. Terrifying.

    Superstar
    yikes! So… how compliant will those of us who go to the midseason event be? Given sufficient peer-pressure.

    Me
    I forget, did you go through Ascension? Most of us became compliant scarily quickly.

    Superstar
    I did. And, you make another scary point.

    And here are some other quotes from members of BOS:

    @lazysmartperson
    Not only was each actor’s method of coercion different, I think their levels of exposure to the truth were different, their complicity is different, and their concern for us is different. I would not blanket statement them all as cowards nor dismiss them for thinking about their own safety. I am going to look out for myself too, but if I am able I want to help those victimized by OSDM.

    @kipsie
    generally the puppeteers aren’t sent out for PR duty, so i imagine that joyce wasn’t as complicit as we’d like to believe

    What I’m building to is…I’m confused. I am not going to defend BOS blindly, so I’m genuinely asking – what do you mean, BOS lacks empathy and mocks vulnerability?

    I suspect that you are taking the remarks of an individual or two and imagining that they represent everyone in BOS. Or perhaps you are holding us responsible for the behavior of a character who seemed at one time to be BOS/TMC. But couldn’t we do the same? Suppose we held you and Russell and the rest of Team Joyce responsible for the abduction and possible murder of Jenna?

    I don’t think that sort of finger-pointing at large groups is productive. And at the risk of sounding overly partisan, I do have to say that “Why aren’t BOS participants doing X or saying Y?” has been all over the forums for months…but nobody is pointing similarly accusatory fingers at Team Ronin or Team Joyce, who might equally be held accountable for “allowing” things to happen or failing to explain their stances in the face of dramatic and violent character behavior.

    Why is it acceptable to cast stones at BOS, and no one else?

    Thoughts?

  • #24456
     Meghan Mayhem 
    Participant

    @daela Thank you for always being able to present the words more elegantly than I am often able. VERY well put.

  • #24478
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    Awesome post, @daela. Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I fear some of my points got lost in the back and forth, so to clarify…

    I’m all for skepticism about Joyce, about her involvement, about whether she is good or bad, and everything in between. At the risk of being too pretentious (too late!) by quoting myself:

    We can discuss whether that was misguided or not, and we can discuss whether she was a flippant jerk or a delightfully sarcastic wit, but let’s at least give (what may have been) her final post the respect of reading it.

    It’s absolutely fair game to debate about her, or despise her, and I don’t think I ever argued to the contrary. If anything, I was engaging in that actual debate – as we should be doing with every sketchy character we meet.

    As for BOS and empathy, perhaps I should have just been more blunt:

    1. I think the baseball bat jokes have been fucked up.
    2. Lots of BOS members like to make baseball bat jokes.

    Not all of BOS, and not only BOS, either. (Hell, two former Team Joyce members are BOS, and they were the first people I pinged when she was in trouble the other night.) I also know @111error‘s feelings about violence, and Mason, all too well. But quite a few leading voices have been gloaty and glib about it — and at the same time that connections between Briarberg and BOS have been murky. I thought it was uncool, so I posted about it. At the very least, I’m glad we’re now having this dialogue.

    And as for questioning the implications of the actions of #TeamRonin, #TeamJoyce, or #TeamPuppetHorace — YES! We should do all of those things. But as I said before, we also get to choose how we treat others in this community. I am by no means a shining beacon of light on this topic — I can be trolly as hell — but I stand by my comments that jokey mcmurder jokes about Addison and Sentinel would have been over the line, and that the Joyce ones were, too. At the end of the day, this conversation isn’t about what she, or anybody, did. On a long enough Experience timeline, we’ll eventually find out that everything we’ve learned has been a lie. I consider that the only given.

    But if people are being deeply, personally affected by characters they meet… shit. That’s the coin of the realm. Seems like something we should celebrate, not denigrate.

  • #24483
     Lauren Bello 
    Moderator

    It’s absolutely fair game to debate about her, or despise her, and I don’t think I ever argued to the contrary.

    @bcbishop – Oops, I was probably the one who wasn’t clear. My point was that I think we are in complete agreement on Joyce, at least in this regard. <3 And plenty of BOS members feel the same way. That’s why I pulled those BOS quotes – not because I thought you’d disagree with them, but because they show that there is plenty of empathy and decency in BOS, and that it’s unfair and unkind to characterize the whole team as heartless and self-centered. That’s why I made the first half of the post a sort of statement on where I stand on Joyce: I was speaking as a member of BOS, agreeing with you.

    I think the baseball bat jokes have been fucked up.

    Ah, ok, and that’s totally fair.

    It’s interesting, because if I had to recap how people reacted to the attack on Joyce, I’d say that nearly everyone was horrified and angry – but contained their anger as an act of community self-awareness, aware of how quickly finger-pointing can turn into a witch hunt. I saw the bat jokes – coming from the same people who roundly condemned Mason – as coming from a few different places:

    1) people nervously laughing in the midst of tragedy because it was one of the most violent, fucked-up things that’s happened so far and they had to deflect for the sake of their feelings, and
    2) people concerned about the big picture, the very real possibility that this might devolve into a hideous accusatory community “bloodbath,” and trying to keep general goodwill going, and paint it as less of something worth fighting over

    I don’t think that anyone truly made bat jokes as a gesture of triumph.

    But regardless, I can see how that would feel for you, and how unintentionally you’d be made to feel like your cause, and Joyce’s legacy, was being minimized and turned into a joke. And I’m sorry if you’ve ever felt unwelcome or silenced in this community.

    And as for questioning the implications of the actions of #TeamRonin, #TeamJoyce, or #TeamPuppetHorace — YES! We should do all of those things.

    This is something that I actually feel uneasy about.

    You were one of…by the end, two people on Team Joyce. If everyone who disagreed with you had questioned your complicity with Jenna’s death, it would have felt like a crowd of people browbeating and berating you.

    Groups and group emotions are powerful things. How can we all question one another’s motives without appearing to be spearheading group attacks? As a member of BOS it’s particularly perilous to question anyone else, because due to baggage from last year it inevitably is construed as “punching down”. I’m not sure if it’s realistic to want a world where we all question each other…is it?

  • #24486
     Cara 
    Participant

    @bcbishop Well put, indeed. I don’t care how awful someone has behaved, violence is not the answer. I’d also like to make the distinction here that generalizing BOS as having an unsympathetic or even cruel response isn’t fair. Not all members of BOS have responded this way and I’d rather not be lumped into a group this way. If empathy is in fact the goal here, it should apply across the board. #NotAllBOS

  • #24487
     Cara 
    Participant

    And I just caught up on @daela‘s responses and couldn’t agree more. Beautifully articulated!

  • #24493
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @daela Ah, gotcha on the first half of that post — yeah, I misread that. Thank you for clarifying. 🙂

    How can we all question one another’s motives without appearing to be spearheading group attacks? As a member of BOS it’s particularly perilous to question anyone else, because due to baggage from last year it inevitably is construed as “punching down”. I’m not sure if it’s realistic to want a world where we all question each other…is it?

    This is a really good point, because on one level all paths should be open to everyone, and if I can step True OOG here for a moment, we should also be able to discuss and question all narrative ramifications of those paths for the richest possible group experience. I think it probably comes down to execution on all of our parts as participants — and that larger question of empathy.

    Example: I decided to stand by OSDM at a certain point. I engage from a place of emotional response, and given that I had internal reasoning to justify my choice (and Joyce Carlberg to emotionally invest in), it would have been easy to take all the shit thrown at OSDM personally — and there is obviously a TON of shit. I knew it would be an isolating choice when I made it, but at no point did any friends go, “Bryan, you’re a terrible human being and personally responsible for these XYZ things that OSDM did.” Instead, we’ve largely had debate and discussion about points of view and the entities themselves — and when I learn about something like the retreats, or Joyce’s crisis of faith, my internal feelings trickle down from there. The result: it’s felt incredibly real and challenging (in the good way). That strikes me as things working well, because we’re all part of this living, evolving ecosystem of thought and emotion.

    Not being able to discuss the implications of that path could limit that experience, I think, and the experience of any other _path someone might choose to walk down. I suspect the answer to the question lies in us all being aware and respectful enough of our fellow friends and participants to be able to recognize the line between healthy IG discussion and hurtful pile-ons / personal attacks. (That’s not to say everybody will be perfect or there won’t be flare-ups; we won’t and there will be). But we are the mob, in this scenario, and it’s up to us to self-regulate and keep each other from becoming angry and aiming pitchforks at our neighbors.

    To that end, I certainly offer my apologies to you, to @chrysalis359, and any other BOS members that didn’t engage in, and don’t agree with, the kind of behavior I described up above. In the interest of wrapping a legitimate concern within an in-game argument, I may have painted with too broad a brush — and I certainly don’t want to accuse people of behavior that they themselves find problematic.

    If you say this kind of thing is #NotAllBOS, I take you at your word. <3 <3 <3

  • #24494
     Cara 
    Participant

    @bcbishop Apology accepted but not needed. I can’t speak for all BOS but I know I and several others have no interest in furthering the bad reputation that preceded us. We can be better. We will be. Or at least, we will try. Maybe you should join us and help make change from within…

  • #24495
     Blondie 
    Participant

    The box of pears analogy works here too. One or two pears in a box of apples does not make BOS a box of pears. Everyone speaks for themselves. And I personally see myself as more of a peach. Or a kumquat. Or an ugly fruit. Whatever. Sweeping generalisations do no-one any favours. Try engaging with people on the basis of who they are, not who they currently align with.

    You can always tell when there’s not much action cos that’s always when people start turning on each other *sigh*. Try going out and doing something else like I did and then you can come back once things are actually happening, instead of making stuff happen by stirring up shit.

  • #24496
     Bryan Bishop 
    Participant

    @chrysalis359 I appreciate the offer, but will pass at this time. 🙂 I’ve contacted @111error about an issue where our interests may align, but probably not best to go into that unless something materializes.

  • #24498
     Lawrence Meyers 
    Participant

    And BoS should know @lazysmartperson did give me a valiant “I’m not recruiting but I am recruiting” attempt on Saturday night.

  • #24500
     Lauren Bello 
    Moderator

    @bcbishop – Totally on the same page <3

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