This topic has 60 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 2 months ago by 
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I don’t know how to parse this. Everyone who was all gung-ho for the hack, hope you’re happy.
I received the email from Sabrina, it had an attachment. I’ve removed email addresses for privacy’s sake – if I should/need to put them up here, I can, just don’t want to bombard these people with emails as this seems pretty sensitive.
But I have followed up with Sabrina and Timothy. Will let you know if there’s any additional movement here.
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On Oct 2, 2017, 3:24 PM -0700, Sabrina Kern, wrote:
Addison, every action has a consequence. Even for those who just push papers, and enter numbers.———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Timothy Granik
Date: Mon, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:03 PM
Subject: FWD: Recovered: Disolved division 8b-16cPulled this from RI, 19 – D5.
As we understand NY, KS, FL, already cleared.
Files purged from 18a – d.
Estimated completion 10/4/17
Partial audio recovered, please add to employee 1687a file
Regards,
TAttachment – https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3k6KawkAkMfaDY2cmtUUE1zcEU
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Call transcription:
[Phone ringing]
Woman’s voice: Hey babe, it is absolutely gorgeous out here –
Man’s voice: [interrupting] -Amanda.
Woman (Amanda): I think we probably needed the rain but I’m so glad it’s over
Man: Amanda.
Amanda: I. I’m here. Are you OK?
Man: They’ve initiated the downgrade.
Amanda: Downgrade? You were demoted? Bu- Ok? Well, we can cut some corners, the cable, my yoga. How bad is it?
Man: No, downgrade.
[at this point, there’s some background noise. Metallic sounding door shutting, someone (I’m guessing the man) is in a large sounding room]
Man: The.. the thing that was never gonna happen.
Amanda: Wha.. no.
Man: Yes. It’s all gone. It’s over.
Amanda: They can’t just.. how? They can fix this-
Man: No. Sweetie, listen. No. It’s all corrupted. At least
Amanda [seeming to cry]: no… Makenzie. I have to find-
Man: Amanda. Amanda! They have her.
Amanda: No!
Man: Y-you need to come to me. It. it’s the only reason I’ve been able to make this call. They are right beside me, Amanda, just please, just come to the- [unsure what he’s saying as Amanda interrupts]
Amanda: -Nooo good lord.. no.
Man: Baby please. Don’t- Don’t make them find you. Come home. [garbled] -find me- [garbled]
Amanda: NO.. no….
Man: Amanda, sweetheart, listen. Don’t make-
Audio cuts here.
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Fuck.
So I’m guessing the files from the states listed are already gone? As in there’s no data from those in those states? If so…not sure how to feel about that one personally.
Meanwhile….the phonecall. What does the deletion of the One’s data have on those who are within the orbit of the ODSM? Clearly people are being summoned to something as a result. Why? For what? Is it the mid-season event or something much sinister?
On the one hand, I’m guessing my data is now gone. On the other hand…how much data did they have on me-and what will they do to those whose data is gone in order to get it back?
Also, 10/4/17. The date of the Mid-season event? Or is it a deadline for the ODSM to somehow stop the deletion of data, if possible?
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On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 15:38 Addison Born wrote:
Message received. I’m trying to understand.Who is this? What’s happening?
If you want me on your side and you want me to actually amplify and defend your message, I need to know more.
I’m assuming this is related to the MyChild hack, but what does this have to do with any of these people?
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On Oct 2, 2017, 4:03 PM -0700, Sabrina Kern, wrote:
We all play a role until we are no longer valuable.. -
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What the actual…
So it sounds to me like they recovered a decent chunk of the data? Or maybe there was a virus that they cleared from those states? The wording here is very ambiguous to me. Recovered seems to make sense. But cleared. Are the files cleared of the corruption? Are they completely gone?
Please tell me they didn’t take Amanda’s kid…
The part where she interrupts after “come to the–” I think he says “Headquarters.”
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Damn, @addisonborn.
So…are the people in the call still valuable to the ODSM? Or have they played their part?
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@mumumusings – that’s unclear at the moment.. it doesn’t sound like the OSDM has a super great severance package.
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On Oct 2, 2017, 4:03 PM -0700, Sabrina Kern, wrote:
We all play a role until we are no longer valuable..What makes them no longer valuable though? If they lost a bunch of information, the people who had been working on it would still be helpful in getting them back to where they were. Even if all the data is corrupted as the man says, I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t be useful to OSDM at all.
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We all play a role until we are no longer valuable..
This is fairly simple.
The OSDM is closing up shops because of the data corruption. There aren’t exactly lay-offs in this kind of world. So they need to tie up loose ends.
OSDM Office Drone #4 here knew things. So did his wife. Her first instinct when she found out what happened was to grab their kid and bolt.
OSDM already had the kid, putting the wife in an impossible position: leave, and the kid dies. Or come in… and maybe there’s a chance.
This entire family is probably dead now. /harshtruth
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“All human sin seems so much worse in its consequence than in its intentions.” – Reinhold Niebuhr
I have a feeling that we’ll be seeing a lot of this now, this downgrading, I think we all knew that the consequences for our actions were going to be harsh. There are too many people, too many families even, involved in the OSDM (or whatever they even are anymore) for there not to be. The main thing is going to be seeing what they try to do to get our data back.
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Likely that this person was some sort of OSDM equivalent of a case worker or analyst. In that particular case, they were valuable because they had skills in working the data that we provided. Now that the data’s gone, there’s no reason to… employ their services.
Maybe there will be attempts to regain their data, but why would the OSDM overlords want to keep on a team that already failed them spectacularly once before? In the corporate world this would be reshuffling and layoffs, in the OSDM world this is more likely to be razor blades and bleached walls
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Those who were in charge of administration for the Nazi party were “just doing their job”, but they still contributed to the genocide even if they weren’t physically taking lives… Just using an extreme example to make a point – we don’t know who these people are, but they work for an organisation that thinks nothing of using manipulation and murder and who knows what else to their nefarious ends. This isn’t “idealism” – this is bringing down the big bad to save who knows how many people and it’s fucking ugly, yes, but I stand by what we did. I know this won’t be popular, I wish people didn’t have to get hurt, but we didn’t start this… We will finish it though.
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we don’t know who these people are, but they work for an organisation that thinks nothing of using manipulation and murder and who knows what else to their nefarious ends
I’m hesitant to point fingers at any of the OSDM’s victims today. It’s impossible to say how much they knew, how complicit they were, to what extent they were manipulated and brainwashed before they ended up where they were.
If we had comprehended the depths of OSDM’s evil, perhaps we would have voted differently.
But I agree that this isn’t something BOS necessarily needs to apologize for. I think that Timothy and Sabrina are the ones who have explaining to do. When an abuser/avowed killer says, “You made me do this,” let’s look closer; let’s not just take them at their word.
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@bcbishop Reposting something I put up in the BOS slack channel:
“Collateral damage I think would be people being harmed as a direct result of our actions. When it’s OSDM doing this shit because they didn’t like what we did, that’s not collateral damage, that’s them continuing to be fucking evil”
We don’t want to see people hurt any more. Morgan spoke that in no uncertain terms when he announced the return of the BOS. This is EXACTLY why we want to end the OSDM.
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You know the whole BOS viewpoint of “I’d rather accidentally help my enemy than harm an innocent?”
Neat. Cool.
Yes, this person was employed by the OSDM. It’s a fucking job. I’m really grossed out here @blondie with the Nazi comparison – this is very obviously a different beast. And don’t excuse this by saying “we didn’t start it.”
You fucking loaded the gun, you aimed the gun, you pulled the trigger. You knew that this action would have a fucking gigantic consequence. I hope your sweet sweet data privacy is worth the bloodshed.
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You support an organisation that thinks doing this to their employees is an acceptable business practice… So am I going to cry myself to sleep because you are “grossed out” by the comparison I made? Nope. Will I shed tears because a child got caught up in this? Probably. Look at what your beloved OSDM and Sabrina are doing before you try to sit in moral judgement of me.
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@nothenrygale I’m sure their kid Mackenzie is really feeling you on the nobility of your struggle.
Real question: If you had known your vote would potentially result in the death of children — who are inherently innocent because they’re, yaknow, children — would you have gone through with it? Not trolling; this is a legitimate moral quandary we should all be pondering (I sure as hell am on my side of the fence).
Wouldn’t it have been wiser to know the true ramifications of your actions before leading your vote? What else is about to happen that we’re not aware of?
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meh…. not really gonna be shamed into thinking that this is entirely our fault. Yeah our decisions contributed, but OSDM obviously isn’t really gonna make great choices when we decide not to play nice. Or hell even if we play nice…I’m sure some other murder thing would eventually happen. Murder sex cult is murder sex cult… what about murder sex cult is so hard to understand?
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@bcbishop Sabrina said it herself:
“We all play a role until we are no longer valuable.”
At some point, the OSDM would deem them as no longer valuable. They’ve been keeping the employees and their families living in fear of this. They’ve shown time and time again (including with Joyce mind you) that they do not value the lives of their employees. This is NOT BOS doing this, this is OSDM placing no value on human life. If their response to anyone working to bring them down is to harm innocent people, then they NEED to be fucking ended.
Stop trying to push the blame away from OSDM and onto BOS.
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Here’s where I struggle a bit. Are we all to blame, yes. Not completely, but partially. For participating in the BOS’s BS game.
Was it worth it, a child being punished for this group choosing to have the OSDM’s data on us corrupted, no.
Would it have been worth it for the truth? I don’t know. without knowing what we would have discovered I cannot answer that question. I’d like to think if I knew what was going to happen I would have tried to stop it, but if I had been offered the truth, I’m not sure what I would have done.
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I know to some it’s going to sound like I’m victim blaming here, but here goes.
These people knew what they were getting into. They knew OSDM was bad, they knew that when they joined, they knew that when they had a child, they knew that when they thought certain things would never happen. They knew what OSDM did and how they did it and what kind of information they had on people, they knew they couldn’t just run away if/when things got bad, that the OSDM would find them no matter where they went.
Do I want to see families destroyed? No. Do I want to see children being threatened? Absolutely not. Do I know that stuff like this is going to happen because OSDM is fucking evil? Yes.
Every employee, every family, everyone involved in this is hanging by a thread. Once the OSDM decides it doesn’t need to puppet you anymore, they cut the thread.
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@nothenrygale I’m not shifting any blame. I find this horrible across the board, and it’s forcing me to think through a lot. But I am interested in your answer to the question I posed. If you’d known children could be harmed as a result, would you have followed through with your vote?
Again, this is not a troll or a gotcha. I actually think it’s vital we all consider our own moral compasses on stuff like this. It’s not like things are going to get any easier moving forward.
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@bcbishop If I was told my decision would directly bring harm to an innocent (child or adult), I’d of course rethink my decision. But that’s not what is happening here. This is an organization who has been known to pull this shit to people. BOS pulled no trigger on these people. BOS shot the OSDM in the leg, and they in turn decided to pull the trigger on them. The fact that the OSDM is doing this proves that they need to be fucking stopped so this shit never happens again.
If BOS didn’t take the action they took, OSDM would pull this exact same shit for some other reason.
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This is an organization who has been known to pull this shit to people.
This is my point, @nothenrygale. You knew what they were capable of, which is exactly why more care should have been taken.
What’s done is done at this point so I’m good to let this go. And I know you have nothing but good in your heart, and that’s where you come from with all of this. But this isn’t a game. These are real lives, and real families. It truly bothers me to see them dismissed away as a moral inconvenience.
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Did we collectively forget that the “bloodline” choice was unpopular because it could potentially harm innocent children?
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Part of attacking an enemy is making sure innocents are in the clear first. Just sayin’.
Yeah, this sounds right. BOS has stated that their goal is to make sure no one gets hurt. This applies to these people, and especially their kid. I participated in the vote, and in hindsight, hell even just in normal sight, I realized we couldn’t judge the consequences and voted anyways. Is this on anyone but OSDM? No, but surely there are better options where no one gets hurt.
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Hang on a minute (I am halfway through brushing my teeth as I type this because I am getting ready for bed – there is toothpaste all over my phone…)
We’ve been arguing at length about the consequences of activating MyChild. The precious data is disappearing… This could be more manipulation. What is the thing that will continue the argument, really get to people and make them react emotionally and potentially violently? The harming of “innocents”, especially children. This could be more OSDM data-mining bullshit… I mean, I don’t doubt that they are capable of destroying families to cover their backs. But it is worth bearing in mind. There is a truth in there, but it may be surrounded by lies. As always.
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I’m confused, we are not the ones who have decided to (possibly) kill/kidnap employees because the data is down the shitter, so why are we the bad guys? Because we decided to make an actual move against this organization that has already seriously fucked up some people’s life’s? That email is terrible and the thought that the OSDM are ruining more lives is worse, but the fact that they would go to such lengths to tie up loose ends and keep things hidden? What is so important that people need to die in order to keep it lowkey?
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What’s most frustrating here is that we all knew that by taking this action, by taking ANY action with regards to MyChild, there would be an outcome. It was decided by vote that the action taken would be drastic, so now here’s the equally drastic outcome. People having fingers pointed at them saying “let’s stop pointing fingers” know in their heart of hearts that their decisions over the past couple weeks brought us all here. You drove this bus.
On slack, @daela brought up the fact that Sabrina’s responsive at the moment. And that maybe we can change something before 10/4. It’s worth a shot.
On Oct 2, 2017, 4:52 PM -0700, Addison Born, wrote:
Sabrina. I understand why this is happening, but I can’t help but feel like there might be a resolution that’s more slightly amicable for all involved parties, no? Maybe these are still residual feelings from BOS, or what I had thought the BOS was.The One data is being purged, yes. We’re split up across different “factions” and mindsets and ideals. But we still exist, and we’re aligned in that we disagree with this course of action.
The One had your ear in the past, and I ask for it again for all of us.
I don’t have the full context here, but I know that you are a good person. What needs to be done?
xoxo gossip girl
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There was also the argument that silence=complicity. We knew that people were getting harmed at these retreats. By passing up the opportunity to strike a blow at the hosts, would we have been complicit in future abuses?
I have a feeling that there was no “right” answer that would have resulted in zero harm.
For me, the more pressing questions now are:
1) Why would they go straight to this downsizing? No effort to restore, retrieve, or regather the data? No hopes that eventually they’ll be up and running again? Just the most irreversible sort of downgrade? What makes them so sure this is the only path?
2) Why are they ok with us knowing that they’re doing this?! They spent so much effort in keeping the goings-on at the retreats quiet…now they’re essentially announcing a slaughter to us?
2a) Was Sabrina supposed to be leaking this? Is she leaking this because she hopes it can be stopped? Or was this leaked with the OSDM’s blessing?
2b) Was it leaked to get a reaction out of us?
3) Is there anything we can do to stop this from happening?
4) Is this confirmation, once and for all, that BOS and MyChild are not part of OSDM?
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To answer a couple questions from my POV –
2) Why are they ok with us knowing that they’re doing this?! They spent so much effort in keeping the goings-on at the retreats quiet…now they’re essentially announcing a slaughter to us?
2a) Was Sabrina supposed to be leaking this? Is she leaking this because she hopes it can be stopped? Or was this leaked with the OSDM’s blessing?
2b) Was it leaked to get a reaction out of us?I feel like this was leaked as to show that yes, the hack was successful, but there’s collateral damage that wasn’t originally taken into account. It’s guilt tripping to some extent, if you feel guilty about this. And it proves that actions have consequences. Like “cool, you did this, now this ripples down to everyone involved.”
It also was shown to spark this exact conversation. And it casts doubt upon the BOS. And it makes BOS-aligned say “yes, innocents were harmed, but at least we found our oracl.. uh. at least the hack was successful.”
3) Is there anything we can do to stop this from happening?
It’s worth a shot of course, but I also emailed Tim Cook to see if he could hook me up with a time machine so I can go back and buy some 2001 Apple stock. Will let you know results on both fronts.4) Is this confirmation, once and for all, that BOS and MyChild are not part of OSDM?
I mean.. the OOA killed Sentinel twice a night for a couple months, but BOS was still a part of the OSDM.
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You know, that’s the thing about a rat trapped in a corner.
This is war and it will not be a hand-holding skip through the fields. There will be ugliness. There will be pain.
No matter what we chose, the OSDM would have responded in a way to make it seem like the blood is on our hands because the alternative is acceptance of defeat.
Like breaking up with an abusive spouse who takes your dog and throws it over a cliff and tells you its your fault for not loving them enough.
You think that doing nothing will avoid that?
Every action has a consequence, even inaction.It will only get darker from here.
And the only way out of the darkness is through. -
The Law of Unintended Consequences — A true story and tough-love allegory:
A city Mayor was up for re-election. He wanted to eliminate pawn shops. He lobbied the city council to pass an ordinance, and called on citizens to do the same. Pawn shops were a “blight”, you see, and “took advantage of the poor”.
A Challenger for the next election hired a consultant whose name rhymed with “Dreyers” and who loved ice cream. The Challenger asked what position he should he take on the matter? Dreyers, who was known to have wisdom in such matters, told the Challenger not to opine. Stay quiet. He did.
So citizens called and Emailed the city council with great vociferousness against the pawn shops, local newspapers ran editorials in support, and an ordinance was passed to ban them. So they all closed up.
But…
You see, people who pawned merchandise needed to raise money for necessities — which was spent in that same low-income area of town on urgent care, auto repair, etc. With the pawnshops gone, those customers took their business to the next town (costing them more in gas BTW), and got their necessities taken care of in the next town. Which meant far less revenue for the local businesses.
Within 6 months that same area was abandoned, run-down and crime-ridden, because nobody spent money there anymore.
Meanwhile, the City had an “unexpected budget deficit” that fiscal year because neither the pawn shops nor the local businesses paid taxes, because they no longer had businesses to pay taxes on.
Dreyers then told the Challenger to pivot his campaign to criticize the Mayor’s terrible idea, and on a campaign to combat “urban blight”…which included a plan to un-ban pawn shops.
You can guess who won the election in a landslide (and 2 city council members who had to find new jobs).
And the best part was the man-on-the-street interviews on the local news, and the local newspapers, all of whom wondered aloud about the terrible blight in that area, “How did this happen? We didn’t do anything! We just demanded the pawn shops get banned”
IT HAPPENED BECA– USE OF YOU, Dreyers screamed at the TV, counting his consultant fees like Sylvester McMonkey McBean.
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Voted for MyChild? Then shoulder the responsibility for it. Pledge devotion to a kind-hearted, well-intentioned, warm and lovable, but totally incompetent General with no field experience, no strategy, motivated entirely by passion, and lacking in reason? Without thought of unintended consequences? Without thought as to who else might become collateral damage?
Then, yes, that means culpability in this consequence.
I’m not saying this as a blame game. I’m saying this for the greater good, because it’s a mistake I’ve made countless times, to my eternal regret, and one I still make.
I’m saying this because, returning to the theme of Ouroboros — we only become whole when we confront our own responsibility and culpability in all of our actions. That in our need to feel good about “doing the right thing”, we rush to act, instead of pausing, seeking, reflecting, considering, and engaging on terms that make the most sense, at the right time, including considering unintended consequences.
Now, is there a consequence to doing nothing? Depends on the circumstance. In this particular instance, I’m feeling relieved that along with @bcbishop, I’m not scrubbing my hands compulsively screaming, “Out, damned spot!”
Sermon concluded. We now return you to the next edition of racist Dr. Seuss stories.
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That’s a cute story @larry. Too bad it has nothing to do with this.
This is not a case of our action having unintended consequences. This is us taking one action, and a separate group of people deciding to make their own action. This isn’t passing a law that has negative results, this is an organization with their own motives making a decision to ruin these people. And to that point, sure BOS is looking to ruin the OSDM organization. Difference being BOS does it by damaging their work. OSDM does it by harming their people and their loved ones.
As has been pointed out before, this is a classic abusive partner technique. Partner is doing horrible things in the relationship. You try to do something to get away. They retaliate and say “look at what you made me do.”
If MyChild starts directly harming innocent people, blame us all the fuck you want. That WILL be our responsibility. But that’s a cheap shot if you’re going to claim their actions are on our hands because they chose to retaliate against innocent people. Going back to the Batman topic from the seminar. Batman is going after Joker, and as a way to get back at him he pulls the whole “Here are two innocent people, you can only save one” scheme. Do you watch that and go “FUCK YOU BATMAN, YOU DID THIS!” No, you go “BATMAN, STOP THE JOKER”.
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@nothenrygale Mmm…actually, Brad, it is directly relevant, which is why I told the story. As a citizen who lobbied the city council to burn it down, the ashes are very much on one’s hands — the guy asking, “How did this happen?”
So much so, that my 13 and 16 year old daughters, after I described the situation, said in unison, “Uh, Bitch, damn right it’s your fault”.
And, with all due respect, the abusive partner analogy is a false analogy and the Batman story as pointed out at The Seminar is… for children. 🙂
But perhaps most interesting — for those interested in how morality shapes society — is that this is also a matter of law, known as “contributory negligence”, and is written into the statutes of at least 46 states.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ut-supreme-court/1087538.html
Simply stated, “Unintentional torts do not involve an intent or purpose to harm; they involve carelessness or indifference.”
Yup. You may also want to examine the definition and application of “proximate cause”. That is, “Would the injury have occurred if the negligent act had not?” In this case, the answer is no. Those who voted set into motion a string of events that resulted in the outcome.
“The purpose of the Act was to ameliorate the harsh common law rules that made contributory negligence, no matter how slight, an absolute defense to an action by a plaintiff for negligence and barred all recovery.”
So grossly immoral was the idea that an unintentional (3rd party or indirect) tortfeasor could escape liability that at least 46 states changed the law.
But more importantly —
I said I’m not casting blame. I’m pointing out the devastating effects and flaws in taking action without any forethought or reason, following a leader who had no strategy, failing to question or point that out, and just hopping on the bandwagon.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is called a “Law” for a reason. It happens, and this is an exact example of such.
But, hey, you choose how to grapple with the results of your own choices. As for me, I’ve learned the hard way that failing to accept responsibility only sets an individual back further from their own self-transcendence.
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Mmmm, well yeah, BOS (and all who voted) should accept partial responsibility. Cause and Effect. We knew our choice would have consequences. Isn’t the motto “burn it down”? Burning things down sometimes leaves bodies. But also aligning yourself with an organization (OSDM) that operates this way also makes you complicit in these actions.
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1) Straight out of the SPECTRE playbook. If an arm gets diseased, you don’t treat it. You remove it.
2) http://jamesbond.wikia.com/wiki/File:Oil.jpg
2a) IMHO, it seems clear this is quite intentional. She appears to be happily returned to OSDM.
2b) See #2.
3) My suggestion: think before acting.
4) There is never a “once and for all”
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What a disturbing phone call to listen to…
I think pointing fingers here is counterproductive and a distraction. Any choice made would have had consequences that would be pinned on us. It’s never going to be pretty.
What are the actions taken during this “downsizing”? The thing they said would never happen or they never talk about?
How does this involve the child? Either the child is dead or they will never see them again and it seems from this call that the parentz know this. If the OSDM is okay with us knowing this, then there must be something buried in plain sight that they think we will overlook. Perhaps they are relying on a pattern we always seem to stick to and therefore underestimate our ability to see the truth within the lie.
So what are we missing that is in clear view?
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One thing to keep in mind is that we don’t know WHY the OSDM did whatever they did to that family, so assuming that it’s an abuser tactic is wrong. They may not be thinking of us at all while they do this. They may think they HAVE to do this. We have no idea what made them do it, what situation OUR decision put them in. The fact is, our decision led directly to their decision. Decisions *always* have consequences. We can’t pick and choose which ones are truly our fault and which ones are someone else’s fault. They are all our fault. It doesn’t erase the responsibility from the OSDM, but pointing fingers at them won’t absolve us either.
All assigning blame does in this context is make us feel better by saying it’s not our fault. It won’t change what happened. This is where we’re at now, and at some point we’re likely to be at a similar crossroads again. Perhaps we can make more thoughtful choices next time.
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It seems like a lot of people are saying that the community made a knee jerk decision without properly analyzing the situation. That might be true, but when do we ever have enough information to make an informed decision. None of us truly know what is going on and I don’t think we will ever truly have enough information. By abstaining to act, do we really gain anything? Who knows? Maybe we would all be invited to an awesome murder sex cult party if we played nice.
Anyways accept that what happened, happened and move on. When you have a chance to act, pray that you make a good decision and that you won’t have to be accused of being short sighted
As always, I’ll have all your backs when that time comes.
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I voted. Admittedly, I didn’t vote for the “winning” vote, but I participated. I wish I hadn’t. I’m sure there were other consequences for abstaining, but this is as much on my shoulders for participating as anyone’s. The truth is that none of us knew what would happen, what the full consequences of our actions would be. Two people, however, probably did. And if that’s true, they chose to go through with this knowing those consequences. I feel like we are pointing too many fingers and putting our hands up in defense and not asking enough questions. Did Morgan and Stacey, in fact, know the consequences of this choice? I feel like there’s an awful lot of hurt going around for people who don’t hurt people. I’m beginning to feel like there are no good guys in this.
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When I first heard the call, and the word “downgrade” my first thought was, “Are these people (Man and Amanda) AI beings, who are being decomissioned as a result of our decision?” (downgrade = opposite of an upgrade, for software).
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@superstar I love that you’re keeping the AI thread alive! You might be right “downgrade” is an odd term to use.
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Batman is going after Joker, and as a way to get back at him he pulls the whole “Here are two innocent people, you can only save one” scheme. Do you watch that and go “FUCK YOU BATMAN, YOU DID THIS!” No, you go “BATMAN, STOP THE JOKER”.
I don’t know how I “go,” but I’m pretty sure that Batman saves one of the two people and spends a fuckton of time feeling responsible for the death of the other, while simultaneously holding the Joker responsible for that same death.
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• I think we should wait and see how Morgan reacts to this before thinking any further on it. It’s obvious we have our own thoughts and pointing fingers, but it’ll be interesting to see how the leader and Stacey herself react to this. I think it’ll show us who they are as people, as a group, and what their ideas mean.
I’ve never understood the BOS. They talk about ideals of destroying the ODSM, starting fires but also never harming innocents (or anyone?). This has always confused me on where their actual morals are.
I present The Trolley Dilemma –
Imagine you are standing beside some tram tracks. In the distance, you spot a runaway trolley hurtling down the tracks towards five workers who cannot hear it coming. Even if they do spot it, they won’t be able to move out of the way in time.
As this disaster looms, you glance down and see a lever connected to the tracks. You realise that if you pull the lever, the tram will be diverted down a second set of tracks away from the five unsuspecting workers.
However, down this side track is one lone worker, just as oblivious as his colleagues.
So, would you pull the lever, leading to one death but saving five?
Do the BOS make the conscious decision to save multiple lives by sacrificing another? This may seem like an unfair question, and you can deflect it by not answering and just blaming the trolley itself. But at the end of the day- do you pull the lever or not?
Do you kill people directly responsible? Do you try and reform/”save” them? Do you kill their bloodline if it means destroying the ODSM?
What lines are the BOS willing to cross to reach their goal?
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@kortneydarling From a legal perspective, aka what can and cannot get you charged as “responsible” in front of a judge, if you are NOT an employee of the train or railway, doing nothing makes it unlikely that you would would be charged. Pulling the lever is a manslaughter charge, if not murder. The defense of pulling the lever comes down to whether you can argue the necessity of the action. Elements of necessity include 1. That you did not create the danger that caused you to commit the crime; 2. You stopped criminal activity as soon as possible; 3. There was no immediate and reasonable alternative, and; 4. What was prevented is greater than the crime committed. Either way, pulling the lever winds up with you arrested and in front of a judge while you defend the necessity.
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One thing to keep in mind is that we don’t know WHY the OSDM did whatever they did to that family, so assuming that it’s an abuser tactic is wrong. They may not be thinking of us at all while they do this. They may think they HAVE to do this. We have no idea what made them do it, what situation OUR decision put them in. The fact is, our decision led directly to their decision. Decisions *always* have consequences. We can’t pick and choose which ones are truly our fault and which ones are someone else’s fault. They are all our fault. It doesn’t erase the responsibility from the OSDM, but pointing fingers at them won’t absolve us either.
All assigning blame does in this context is make us feel better by saying it’s not our fault. It won’t change what happened. This is where we’re at now, and at some point we’re likely to be at a similar crossroads again. Perhaps we can make more thoughtful choices next time.
Gotta go with @coryphella on this one. Why are we hearing this in the first place?? Either Sabrina released it wtihout OSDM’s knowledge and we’re meant to understand the gravity of our decisions, or ODSM meant for us to hear this for this exact reason- they knew we’d all start blaming each other and get distracted yet again. And like Megan stated above, we aren’t even sure of the context of this call. It could be completely unrelated to the MyChild events, or it could be a direct cause. We don’t know, and I think we need to be thinking about WHY we’re hearing this.
Also, the use of the term “downgrade” is really odd, as @superstar pointed out. Why that term?
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Elon Musk created an energy efficient electric car and refused to patent the engine schematics in hope that others would take and continue to use the design, as a means to more energy efficient cars on the road and a cleaner environment. He makes lots and lots and lots of money off this design, but he also does it as a means to bettering the world. Do you feel bad for the gas companies who lose profits as a result? Do you feel bad for the competing car companies who have access to this design, but instead decide to adapt Elon’s car chasis and not the energy efficient non-patented engine design and lose profits as a result? Do you view Elon’s desire for cleaner cars as nothing more than a money grab with unintentional ecological side effects, ignoring the fact that he refused to patent?
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The events of the past week reminded me of a Facebook post that went up back in early August. This is a tricky situation. If anyone wants to point any sort of blame at BOS, sure this may be it. That our actions did not prevent OSDM from retaliating against innocent people. BUT, unfortunately we know OSDM is much bigger and widespread than we initially thought. There will not be any sort of easy solution to stopping OSDM and several steps will have to be taken.
@111error Now that we’ve struck this blow to the OSDM, is there anything at our disposal to help with preventing them from taking further actions against innocent people?
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