Creators Interview, Call to Taylor

[Cristen]

Long time no forum, huh?

I’m relaying some info here on behalf of @taysavestheday, who will be unfortunately taking a step back for now due to work and grad school.

Taylor called me last night and told me this wild story and, with the impending “return” of Lust, he decided I should pass it on for him.

If any of you know Tay, you’ll know he’s editor-in-chief of Haunting dot net, and I write there too, along with many community members. We were contacted several weeks back offering an interview with The Creators, which Taylor conducted via email for us. As far as we thought, this was going to be an an interview with folks who were making theatre, and we’ll put the article out soon, no problem. Except then…this happened. And here’s Taylor:

—
I received a “No Caller ID” call on my phone. It was a woman’s voice, one that sounded like Cecelia Sinclair.
“Do you know who this is?”
I responded that I didn’t. But she didn’t seem to care. I heard movement on the phone, and the woman remarks that she notes I’m a doctor. I tell her that I am, but she doesn’t seem to show much interest in that either.
She continues, “I heard you spoke to The Creators about an interview.”
At this point, I realize she is referencing The Lust Experience and a conversation Darren and I had—and some interview questions that I sent over to him.
“I want to read it, but I don’t want you to publish it.”
“I want you to inform me when it’s sent. And what it says. And don’t think for a moment because you have their ear, that makes you important—it doesn’t. It makes you sad and pathetic, just like them. Spinning tales, trying to change the narrative. When their response comes. I want to know.”
I ask her how to get in touch with her. But she’s already hung up.

—

My understanding is that who we presume was Cecilia initially told Taylor not to publish, but changed her mind and said to publish, but let her see it first.

There’s your mind fuckery for the day. Or week. We’ll link everyone to the interview questions and answers when we get them, I hope. But who’s spinning a narrative? Cecilia or the Creators? Which narrative is being spun? If there’s a false story being told, how can we know who’s writing it anymore?

[Sarah]

It’s been said by several people that Cecilia appears to be the one to focus on. As Sam noted on the Slack, Noah had said something akin to Horace being a “teddy bear” compared to his mother. @daela also mentioned on the Slack that it seems awfully sus that:

“We’ve always been told that Horace has been pulling the strings; everyone has always seemed afraid of him; Noah himself has always referred to Horace as a big bad of sorts, the one we have to be prepared to face. Noah’s mother has always been a shadowy and ambiguous figure. Now, right before we all began an in-person investigation for answers, she just decided to reveal herself? Convenient. If she really had been using Horace as her public face to draw attention away from herself, why reveal herself? I think it’s more likely the reverse, and that she was thrust into the spotlight to take heat off Horace, or someone else”

I have never dealt with Cecilia personally outside of her suggesting I take off my clothes to excite Taylor, so I’m not sure how I can judge her character and whether or not this is normal behavior.

[Cristen]

Follow up from Taylor, carried over from Slack just now:

I received interview responses in my inbox today (and they are fantastic) from Darren and Clint, so I sent them back a nice email to thank them. I also informed them that I spoke to someone I suspected was Cecilia Sinclair last night. That was around noon.

At about 6pm, I get a non-blocked call. It was Darren. He seemed happy, but confused about me mentioning the woman caller in my email, almost as if it was a joke. He asked if I was certain, and I told him I wasn’t 100% sure, but the voice matched what I recalled her sounding like. He paused and then asked how I knew it was Lust related. I told him that she referenced the interview with “The Creators” and I currently am not interviewing anyone else. He then asked what number she called from and I told him a blocked number.

“Now I don’t want you to take this the wrong way… but are you fucking with me?” he asked.

I assured him I was not–and then he said, “I’ll call you right back” and hung up. He has not called back, but I’m curious what this is all about.

[Maranda]

I feel that usually when “exploring in this world”/”playing this game”/”participating in LUST” (or however else you want to phrase it), it’s pretty easy to tell when something is part of the narrative or not, meta or otherwise. This communication with Darren has left me wondering if Taylor’s interaction with “Cecelia” on the phone might just be firmly planted in our reality, though logic says otherwise.

[Robert Fuller]

This has echoes from the time Darren accused @bcbishop of fucking with him over the phone call he received in Austin, which occurred at the very beginning of Lust … just like this is occurring at the very beginning of the second part of Lust. I feel like Darren is just fucking with us.

[Megan]

Interview is up!
An Interview with Darren Lynn Bousman and Clint Sears of The Experiences

[Maranda]

Just finished the article. First, props to @blondie and haunting.net for great writing. Thoughts below.

“The other, more strict part of the deal, is that they must always give winks and acknowledge some of their more obscure realities so that the audience can technically say they have a choice of sorts. If it was all completely hidden or out in the open completely then what they require wouldn’t work. Allegedly.”

Is that “they” referring to us? Or to THEM? If it’s referring to THEM, it’s what we know: there is truth hidden in the lies.

The line after that one is concerning: “…some of the decisions we make are bread crumbs that help us out more than the story or the audience.”

I don’t know about you guys, but to me that sounds like a cry for help. @coryphella mentioned that this could be what Cecelia was looking for with that call to @taysavestheday. I think it could be exactly what Cecelia is looking out for. Everytime we interact with the creators directly, they have a chance to send a message to us directly too. It would be a waste if such an opportunity were to be ignored, and that’s why they are watching so closely.

[Cristen]

Update time.

Here’s a little background:

I wrote a bunch of the questions out for Taylor to send to the Creators, and also compiled the list he ended up sending them, they returned the finished questions (adding in that fun meta bit) and sent them back, which Taylor shared with Haunting Staff per his habit, after which @blondie turned it into the beautiful narrative you now see.

When Cecilia called Taylor she asked him to send her the un-edited answers, which he did not do, going so far as to tell the Creators in his thank you email that he spoke with Cecilia and would not be doing as she asked, which lead to Darren’s confused call to Tay.

Remember that part where he shared the interview with staff? I uh…might have taken it upon myself to forward the document to Mrs. Sinclair myself. Sorry Taylor, I was curious why she wanted it.

Anyhow I just got a call from the red lady herself, I’m paraphrasing a bit because I’m at the office but I think I’ve got it down.

“Is this Cristen?”
“Yes.”
“You don’t sound like Taylor, Cristen. So why are you sending me what I asked him to do?”
“He didn’t want to.”
“Is he scared?”
“I don’t know, maybe? I can’t speak for him.”
“He’s a doctor you know.”
“I know.”
“Are you a doctor?”
“No ma’am.”
“Are you educated?”
“Yes.”
“ARE you educated?”
“Yes ma’am.”
“Then you’re smart enough to realize that their words are all lies, all of it. They’re just two lonely men trying to get attention. So STOP GIVING THEM A PLATFORM.”
*click*

…yikes.

[Blondie]

Sorry @wanda102 but you were “curious” as to why someone apparently high up in the OSDM would want to see the creators’ answers? I hope there are no repercussions for the creators or anyone else because of your curiosity. Hope getting Cecelia’s attention is worth that… Taylor refused, it certainly never even entered my head to send it to her myself (why would I ever give the OSDM anything they ask for?)… This speaks a lot about allegiances and motivations in my humble opinion

[Unseen Presence]

Conversely, I’m very glad that she did this.

First, I have a hard time not believing that Cecilia didn’t already have the answers anyway–or rather, that the creators didn’t have to get their answers signed off on at some level. But let’s assume for a moment that they -did- manage to slip something through. Or that Cecilia and the rest of Them were worried about such happening.

Then getting them a copy in the way Cristen did could only open doors or show some potential motivations/attitudes/responses that might help us eventually understand everything.

If I’d had access to the questions, I might have done the same thing. I don’t know for sure, as I wasn’t in that scenario. But I -might- have. And now we have more information.

[Blondie]

And what information have we gained? That Cecelia thinks Taylor is foolish? I don’t know what we would’ve done without that knowledge… Cecelia isn’t going to tell us ANYTHING and certainly nothing that will be of any advantage. She clearly thinks she is smarter than the average bear

[Unseen Presence]

I think the statement “stop giving them a platform” is worthy intel to have gotten. It defines her in relation to them–which we can then debate the truth of, certainly. But her request was strange and I was as curious as Cristen was. Now we at least got a potential answer as to why she wanted to see them.

Is it possible she was lying, etc.? Sure, but even that’s a valuable thing to learn if we can. Or maybe we just learned that Cecilia is more honest than many of the others because she doesn’t have to lie. That, too, would be valuable.

If I were Taye, I might be really upset. Her choice might definitely still be a betrayal from that viewpoint. That’s up to Taye.

[Blondie]

Not just Tay. We’re meant to be a team…

[Cristen]

@blondie allegiances? I’m hurt, Vicki. I would have thought we knew by now how fucked we all are regardless of where we “stand.” As for my curiosity, well shit, it got me this far, I can’t go against my nature now. You don’t want to know WHY Cecilia is so sure The Creators are full of shit? What happens if she’s right and they’ve been the monster in the cupboard this whole time? Maybe we’ve allowed ourselves to get too comfortable, thinking they’ll protect us. I don’t know, I’ll admit that. But I’ll also admit I’m interested to know why they’re suddenly being called out by their own…employees…as it were.

We ARE a team, Vicki. But the only logical goal is to run down the rabbit hole towards what little truth is left at the end.

[Blondie]

@wanda102 didn’t they just say in the interview that they were amazed by how often, how complacently, people would say yes… and that there was always an alternative path if you said no? I hope by saying yes and going along with Cecelia’s wishes, we haven’t lost out on a more enlightening track instead of falling further into a rabbit hole filled with OSDM bullpoop.

And team members don’t keep things from the others when the consequences could affect us all…

[Bryan Bishop]

This take coming from me will surprise no one, I’m sure, but Cristen did the one thing we should all be doing: testing the limits. Seeing what happens. Asking questions, taking action. Doing anything other than just standing by and waiting for somebody else to take the lead.

TPTB say as much in the interview. Too many participants just go along with whatever, because it’s there. It’s convenient. It’s easy. What happens when one of us says no, when everyone else is saying yes? What happens when one of us sends Tim Granik information we’ve learned, when everyone else is taking the same side? What happens when one of us enters the Mid-Season Event, with the expressed intent of rescuing their good friend Stephanie?

Things happen. We impact this world, and the people that are architecting it. High-fives, @wanda102.

[Blondie]

@bcbishop And who is to say that all those lost alternatives weren’t better? Weren’t more enlightening? More exciting if that’s what you want? Just because *something* happens, it doesn’t mean something *better* couldn’t have happened instead. But we’ll never know. Because they’re lost to us now. All we have at the end of the day are our morals to act as a guide and the awareness that our actions have consequences.

[Cristen]

Nothing’s lost, come now. And inquisition does not beget immorality.

[Blondie]

What a beautifully poetic statement @wanda102. I’m sure Cecelia appreciates your eloquence… ?

[Bryan Bishop]

@blondie “And who is to say that all those lost alternatives weren’t better? Weren’t more enlightening? More exciting if that’s what you want? Just because *something* happens, it doesn’t mean something *better* couldn’t have happened instead.

Totally agree, actually. But the point I’m trying to make is that something happened in all of these situations because someone took action. If somebody had taken action another way, maybe things would have turned out differently — but they didn’t, so here we are.

The most vital thing about all of this is that it is real — we act, and these forces respond. Agency isn’t only key; it’s arguably the only thing that truly matters. We’ll all continue to have differences of opinion and make different choices based upon the people we are, but even that conflict serves the goal of getting us to feel something.

[Blondie]

@bcbishop I agree with you in principle, don’t get me wrong. The thing is that when you’re part of a team and one person goes rogue, that is going to cause you to have a lot of questions… As it should.

[Megan]

OH MY GOD YOU GUYS IT’S BARELY 2018.

[Bryan Bishop]

@blondie As usual, I think we actually believe the exact same thing, and just look at it from slightly different points of view. LOL

If somebody takes action, they 100% should expect questions about it. That’s the emotional flipside of taking an extreme action (and I will totally admit it’s often not fun/easy taking an unpopular stance). But even that means feeling something, which is its own strange reward!

[Blondie]

@bcbishop This does happen a lot huh?! ? But I wouldn’t say Cristen’s decision is unpopular – mine seems to be the only voice of dissent…

[Unseen Presence]

First, I’ll apologize if I made it sound like Taye was the only one who could/should be upset. Was NOT my intention at all. I only said Taye because it was him who Cecilia specifically asked. I get that y’all are supposed to be a team.

Second, this is what I meant by suggesting elsewhere that maybe the ONLY answer that exists is whatever Generic You decides matters. If I decide that the right course of action is to wholeheartedly believe that Cecilia is the real power behind things and support her 100%, then maybe that IS true and IS the answer–for me. And if I take actions based ON that belief, then (for me) the story will become that. Maybe if others take actions in opposition to that idea, the story becomes the conflict between those two stances.

In other words, it may really BE that there is nothing more than the outcome of actions at the core of everything. So what then becomes the real answer? Whatever we decide it is. Maybe all the Anoch stuff and the various strange images/events/snake Gods that are out there have NO OTHER REASON except as images/ideas to spur us into acting.

Or maybe that’s the REAL con behind all of this. Maybe the goal is to keep us REACTING instead of SEEING.

I also see the argument that giving Cecilia the answers might have locked out other choices. But giving them potentially opens other avenues. I almost feel like that’s a dilemma with no real answer–because we’ll never know which choice is the one we’re ‘supposed’ to take so if we take a different one we know we’re ‘breaking the rules’. All any of us can do is take the action we choose to take at that moment.

For instance, right now I’m very likely to do anything the OSDM asks of me–especially if it were directly so–because I REALLY want to understand them from their own standpoint. I know there are equally people that would resist the OSDM at any turn, if given the choice. Maybe all they -really- want from us are those decisions. Or maybe those decisions really DO matter in the end. Or matter as data.

It’s enough to spin me in circles. So I’m going to take the choices I take–like Cristen did–and take whatever repercussions (if any) come from them. I think this was a clear example of why that’s the only approach any of us CAN or SHOULD take.

[Megan]

“…must always give winks and acknowledge some of their more obscure realities so that the audience can technically say they have a choice of sorts. If it was all completely hidden or out in the open completely then what they require wouldn’t work. Allegedly.”

‘some of their more obscure realities’

‘the audience can technically say they have a choice of sorts’

‘then what they require wouldn’t work’

I get that the bread crumbs thing freaks y’all out. But these three phrases give me the chills.

[Violet]

Agreed @coryphella. those phrases in particular really stuck out in a disconcerting way.

[Blondie]

These stood out to me too @coryphella. As I said in Slack, Clint’s tone differs here from the way he speaks in the rest of the interview… That and the fact this question was added… Is this a message from the Creators? Or something someone else wanted them to say? I really can’t get my head around it. All I know is that it’s important

[Bryan Bishop]

These phrases are what are standing out to me as well.

@blondie, out of curiosity was there anything else in the Q&A from that meta section that was cut for length, or is that reproduced in full?

I’m also finding myself fixating on the use of italics. That’s pretty on-the-nose for TPTB… so the question becomes why.

[Blondie]

Very little was cut from the interview as a whole and zero from that question. I was very careful to keep it verbatim as I immediately realised something was seriously sus…

[Blondie]

Also italics were added by Taylor in editing. For clarity.

[Bryan Bishop]

@blondie Rock n’ roll, thanks for the clarification (and the write-up)!

It’s probably worth noting that some of what Clint said reads a little differently now that we know he didn’t italicize those words:

“It’s tricky at times,” says Sears, “but partially, we try to aggregate the items that we feel are most believable, and also won’t jeopardize any of the relationships and trust that we’ve built. The other, more strict part of the deal, is that they must always give winks and acknowledge some of their more obscure realities so that the audience can technically say they have a choice of sorts. If it was all completely hidden or out in the open completely then what they require wouldn’t work. Allegedly.”

Emphasis mine there, but that reads to me like CS is saying that the meta storylines/adopted elements must give a nod-and-a-wink, rather than a mysterious they being asked to give a nod-and-wink. Minor change in emphasis, but one version suggests that whatever this deal is, TPTB are in charge, and can force a “They” to do something, which is definitely not the power dynamic that we’ve seen thus far. Without the itals though, it seems to line up with what we know…

[Blondie]

But don’t you think the switch from “we” to “they” is odd? That first “they” should be a “we”, surely. The second “they” refers to the audience obviously. But what about the third? (Sorry if this doesn’t make sense… it’s nearly 4am)

[Bryan Bishop]

@blondie It’s hard to track for sure — even when it’s only 8PM! 🙂

That’s probably by design, but I’m reading the first “they” as referring to “the items” (which impacts the whole power dynamic thing I was ruminating on). But now that you mention things that may have been typos on the part of TPTB, I wonder if “their more obscure realities” was meant to be “the more obscure realities”? That would make the final they also referring to “the items” which actually makes more sense overall?

Hrm. My head hurts.

[Blondie]

@bcbishop That does make a lot more sense actually! I wondered if it was a typo but as I said, I purposefully left it well alone (Taylor and his flippin’ italicising aside).

You should see my attempt at explaining meta-narratives… it was awful ?

[Megan]

What is up with them being in love with @taysavestheday’s PhD?
I’d have one too if it didn’t require a divorce.

[Cristen]

@coryphella you just reminded me that she also said “for someone who’s a doctor, he lacks common sense.”

[Megan]

@wanda102 Neither do MFAs, it’s ok. 🙂

[Sarah]

I’ve never understood why being a doctor equated to magically having common sense. I’ve known some really incompetent doctors. -shrugs-

[Chelsea]

Whoa, @wanda102 that phone call is… interesting. This feels like there are multiple things/people working here. I feel similarly to the way I felt at the MSE, like there’s a script being written and then there’s what’s happening around that script. I still have a Noah convo that needs to be written up from that night (I suck.), but this seems like it might be an important time to do that.

[shinobi]

Just two lonely men? Judging from Darren and Clint’s social media accounts, they don’t seem like the lonely type. Cecilia does, though.

[Kevin]

“Then you’re smart enough to realize that their words are all lies, all of it. They’re just two lonely men trying to get attention. So STOP GIVING THEM A PLATFORM.”

I’ve been beating this particular drum on Slack quite a bit, but to me, this still feels orchestrated to give cover to DLB and CS. Or to Cecilia. Or to DLB, CS, and Cecilia.

Each has indicated that the other isn’t to be trusted and has less power than they believe, but why?

From @bcbishop’s account of Anointment, we know that Darren, Clint, and Gordon were all around and masked. They appeared to be directing and controlling the show, and some there were even required to call DLB ‘The Master’. Cecilia also seemed to have power in there and control over some aspects, including The Honoring. Anna acknowledged Cecilia’s role in some way, by asking whether they were still being paid after Noah interrupted the ceremony. As to whether Cecilia was a fellow actress, had hired actors to help run through The Honoring, or a script had been written to increase confusion around her role, who knows at this point.

Whatever the case, there seems to have been some change since around the time of Anointment. The outcome of those changes appears to be maximum confusion and doubt over who is running things (and Horace is curiously absent in all of this). All three have normally chosen to operate behind the scenes, so why come out and take some ownership now? Is it to cloak who’s actually running it completely and it’s someone else entirely? Are they working together? Or Cecilia wanted to assert some control and didn’t want them stealing her thunder and misleading people. Or Darren and Clint wanted it to look like Cecilia was asserting control over them so they could go back to operating without so many eyes on them.

[Unseen Presence]

You’ve nailed it on the head.

There’s three choices, really, right?

DLB/CS are in charge and Cecilia is off-script somehow.
Cecilia is in charge (or at least among the THEM in charge. Investors/whatever) and DLB/CS are off-script somehow.
Everything remains exactly as it should be and -whatever- conflict may be rising between the creators and Cecilia is entirely intentional to distract us.

Once again. Yet again confusing the issue of who we -should- believe. Who we -should- follow. Who is -actually- in charge, or behind everything. Of what we -should- believe as the goal.

I am beginning to wonder if this really -is- the answer: Believe who you want to believe. Follow what you wish to follow. The end goal is whatever YOU make it to be.

Instead of there being a ‘final’ level…maybe there really is only YOUR level for YOU. I know this isn’t the first time that’s been suggested. But I’m beginning to grow on the idea of that being the actual answer–and if it is, well done OSDM. Your experiments would then work forever, I think.

[Lawrence Meyers]

This all speaks to something @bcbishop and @chelsea and I have been discussing. i.e. the nested dolls i.e. who exactly is in charge of whom?

The three of us seem to agree that there is A BIG BAD at the top of all this, probably someone we haven’t seen yet, that is controlling everyone inside/beneath him.

There are 3 entities beneath: OSDM, The Investors, The Creators. I suspect they go in that order, but it doesn’t matter just yet. What matters is what @chelsea has posted. I agree that the entire MSE was a charade. That wasn’t OSDM HQ. It was a show for us, to seduce us, to lure us into believing that OSDM can give us what we lust after. Hell, I KNOW how many of you lusted to see me nekkid.

Cecilia’s admonishment about DLB/CS mirrors what Michelle did at the book party. The guys keep getting big heads about who they are in all this and have to be reigned in from time to time. Whether Cecilia is real or an actress remains to be seen. Either she’s real OSDM, an actress who is a tool of OSDM, or a fictional creation of DLB/CS that is somehow coming to life. Bottom line is there appears to be some power struggle, not the least of which is whether Noah is going to step in and take over. The whole Anoch thing seems like old school belief. I’m more inclined to think Michelle and Mr. Silver and Noah have a different vision rooted in The System.

Which takes us to @lilmsfancpants.

@bcbishop and I believe that she is either an OSDM agent or unwilling pawn AND HAS BEEN FROM THE START. (Correct me if I mis-speak on your behalf, Bryan). We doubt she ever actually met Noah at Lock and Key. Nobody witnessed this. Bryan never heard her on the call with Noah. We doubt there was ever a meeting in the park. There’s too much risk in having someone dragged off in public w/o someone calling the cops, and something that big and cool would’ve been done by OSDM so everyone could witness it.

We theorize that her recounting of her meet with Noah, which took place with the OOA Comfort Room painting so prominently presented in the Periscope was, in fact, a message to the community. She’s probably acting against her will for OSDM to perpetuate their plans. This was a signal to us. When this was called out, she had to protect herself by saying, “Oh ha ha. Just an inside joke! We found it on eBay!” Did anybody ever check to see who the seller account was for that painting? No.

And let’s remember the night Noah met Bryan at Seven Grand that he called @buz while we were at Residuals, and TOLD US that someone among us was a plant. Not an OOG plant as we assumed but AN OSDM PLANT.

Then comes this weird moment where she allegedly sees some snake monster and was subsequently discredited by DLB/CS via Noah Nelson. Seems to me that she either saw something and wasn’t supposed to reveal it, or made it up. Either way it fucked up OSDM’s narrative and the boys were pulled in to discredit her.

Which takes us back to this thread: who/what matters. And I think the message is that what matters is us. What we feel. What we choose, why, and when.

So does it matter that my “rescue” of Stephanie was staged?
Nope.
What matters is what I felt, and how I changed. So will whatever comes after, and given that I believe she is still under OSDM control, that story is not over yet. [WHAT’S IN THE BOX?]

What matters to you?

[Bryan Bishop]

@larry I’d clarify slightly, in that while we discussed all of these (and others) as options, I don’t think we can definitively know yet. And at the moment, I am 100% taking @lilmsfancpants’ story about the MSE as truth. The cover-up by Darren and Clint doesn’t make much sense to me otherwise.

[Sage]

Whoa, @larry, when you lay it all out like that…it does make me question. I forgot about that painting! And I’m really really curious about WHAT’S IN THE BOX!!

[Andrew Kasch]

That was an incredibly insightful interview. That said, one could go crazy trying to look for the hidden meaning behind every word Darren and Clint said.

For the last 2+ years, every event and moment that has happened has been said to be a charade. The “this isn’t what you think it is” drum has never stopped beating.

Most people operate under the assumption that Sears + DB have been puppets of the OSDM this whole time. I wonder if it might be the opposite: That this really did begin as an immersive theatre exercise, those involved started to believe it to the point where they made it real, and the creators have been fighting to contain what they’ve unleashed. Like the Frankenstein monster turning on its creator or how Scientology (not the first time this has been mentioned) started as a dare and became a real religion.

And like the rise of Christianity, all these factions (OSDM/OOA/BOS/Briarberg) are sort of like denominations that rose up between cast and participants alike. That interview could be the equivalent of damage control/intervention.

[Cristen]

And like the rise of Christianity, all these factions (OSDM/OOA/BOS/Briarberg) are sort of like denominations that rose up between cast and participants alike. That interview could be the equivalent of damage control/intervention.

I can dig this @kasch. It unfortunately (or fortunately ?) supports Cecilia’s claim that The Creators are working as spin doctors, however, no?

[Andrew Kasch]

Cecilia could be delusional or even brainwashed – just like Sabrina and the other actors who answered the call for a gig and ended up taking it too far. Bousman & Sears are telling the truth and she’s just in total denial and saying whatever she can to discredit them.

[Author]

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