August 8, 2017 at 2:50 pm #22012
The thing is, we’ve always said that nobody is going to “win” this game. Nobody will escape without being betrayed. We’ll all have to lose something, at some point, in some way. I have to believe the same goes for the OSDM and those who side with them. Maybe it will be a small loss – like being blindsided by a participant becoming a leader. Maybe it will be a greater loss – like the rescue of one of their victims, or betrayal by someone they trusted. Whatever the scale, I don’t want to make the mistake of believing that anyone is invincible.
I think there’s an interesting dilemma in there. I think we “know” that in the end, we’re all fucked. But what do we do about that? Do we say “We’re all fucked, resistance is futile, I’ll just wait for the axe to fall. Why fight the inevitable?”, or do we stubbornly resist anyway?
Maybe the point isn’t winning the struggle, but struggling in the first place. I don’t want to just accept that it’s all going to end in disaster for us, even if I know that’s likely to be the case. I want to fight it anyway, because it feels wrong to give in, and just *let* it happen. If our destruction is inevitable, I want to make them *prove* it. EARN it. I’m not just gonna roll over, and die because someone tells me it’s going to happen eventually anyway.August 8, 2017 at 2:52 pm #22014Hannah SchenckParticipantAugust 8, 2017 at 2:52 pm #22015Bryan BishopParticipant
Arguing ideas? Cool.
Arguing tactics? Cooler.
Wondering who is motivated by what in a world where the fourth wall has collapsed and it’s not clear who is what (or why) anymore? Coolest of all.
Attacking IRL friends because they don’t agree with you, and pretending it’s all “in-game”?
That was BOS’s move last year.
Keep it up, and you won’t just lose recruits. You’ll lose players for the game itself.August 8, 2017 at 2:59 pm #22016
@wanda102 Yeah, but at some point, you can use that line of thought to justify anything at all You can say “Well, yeah, Joyce knew you’d think A, so she did B.” If you thought B, well then she knew that too, so she did A. If you tried to be clever and think C, no dice, Joyce is too csmart for you, she already anticipated that. It basically places her in the role of an omniscient entity, and I just don’t think that’s what she, or OSDM actually are.
You can basically take any event that ever happened, and say “Ah hah, it was always meant to be that way. It was predestined. It’s turtles, all the way down!” Suggesting that we’re hopelessly behind, and can never catch up is a lot like saying “It’s not for us to understand the mind of God.”August 8, 2017 at 2:59 pm #22017
I would have thought that just because there’s fewer of us on this side of the room, it didn’t mean our opinions were irrelevant or should be subject to ridicule.August 8, 2017 at 3:01 pm #22018
@winstonsmith I’m not saying it’s hopeless and I’m certainly not saying we should resist anything; I wouldn’t ask questions at all if I wanted to lay down and die. I wouldn’t even be here. But I do think it’s important to remain skeptical of your own cause as well as that of your enemy so you don’t become complacent.August 8, 2017 at 3:02 pm #22019CaraParticipant
Though I won’t be attending, I greatly look forward to hearing about Sunday’s events from both sides. While I don’t agree with all of @maddyxxx tactics thus far, he certainly has piqued my interest. I’ll be very curious to see just how he intends for you to “work the system.” Perhaps he is planning something that I can actually get behind.
That being said, I’ll be right over here in my BOS corner in the meanwhile. And I have nothing but respect for those of you who differ in your beliefs. Perhaps future events will make us all see eye to eye. Perhaps not. (That’s the great thing about ‘Murica!) Besides, I know there are some great minds on the other side of the aisle and we would definitely be stronger if we all worked together collectively. Towards what goal? Well, that remains to be seen but just imagine if we stopped wasting our energies on in-fighting and instead stood together against an evil. There is strength in numbers. Just a thought…August 8, 2017 at 3:04 pm #22020CrystalParticipantAugust 8, 2017 at 3:10 pm #22021
@wanda102 OK, but when you suggest that Joyce/OSDM are so far ahead of us we couldn’t possibly understand her grand plan, isn’t that complacency?
It’s absolutely important to remain skeptical. Are you skeptical of Joyce? Are you as skeptical of Joyce as you expect other people to be of their chosen faction mascots?August 8, 2017 at 3:13 pm #22022
@kipsie probably explains why I like butting heads with him so much. 😌
But yes, we’re not sitting here making excuses for OSDM, nor do we have more information than anyone else about what the fuck is going on. This is just another _path. And we aren’t even half way, and are still very much in a speculative phase.August 8, 2017 at 3:21 pm #22023
@winstonsmith Joyce gave us true if slightly obtuse answers to our questions, spoke in admittedly clever riddles, and berated us. The brevity and clarity of her behavior appealed to me, but of course I am skeptical. I want to know WHY she came, what her real motives are, how much she really knew (to see if I gave her too much credit!) and what version of OSDM we have hovering above us this year.
Anyone who’s asked questions of Morgan seems satisfied by his answers. That’s good. He is completely charming and believes in his cause. I do not question his character as a man. I do question what he intends to do afterwards if his plan to burn OSDM succeeds, and if he even knows what he’s fighting against, and what danger he’ll put you all in if you don’t keep asking why. Just follow yourself. If your path is with him, go. I’m sure I’ll meet you at rock bottom.August 8, 2017 at 3:23 pm #22024Twan IntarathuchParticipant
To each his own. I don’t buy it that any of us are truly complacent or at ease with the situation. We might have favorite characters etc.. but whatever side we find ourselves on, we’re all trying to move the plot forward/figure out what is really happening.August 8, 2017 at 3:49 pm #22028
@wanda102 For the record, I’m not at all satisfied by Morgan’s answers. I think we agree that he’s charming, and believes in his cause. I’m just not sure that the cause he believes in is what he thinks it is, as you’ve pointed out before. All I know about BOS so far is that they say “We like truth! Boo OSDM!” But, when @111error says that he, and Noah share certain goals, well, what goals are those, and are they goals that I share? I don’t know, but I’m mighty suspicious. When someone says “We share goals”, but can’t even disclose what those goals are, why *shouldn’t* I be suspicious? At a minimum, BOS should be able to say “This is what we believe, this is what we stand for, and this is why.” You don’t have to compromise your techniques, tactics, and procedures to say what you believe in. If an organizations very *goals* are secret, how would I know if they’re my goals too? Maybe they’re totally opposite to my goals, and that’s a problem for me. That’s information that I *require* before I can decide whether I support him, and BOS or not. I hope to be able to talk to him, and assess whether or not I feel like I can trust him. Right now, I just don’t know either way, but I do know my spidey senses are tingling like crazy, and that there is a LOT we aren’t being told, by *all* parties involved in these shenanigans. When someone doesn’t want to answer certain questions, it could very well be because they know you’re not going to like the answers.
I think @111error and the BOS/Resistance are more likely to be closer to my own viewpoint than say, Joyce, or Noah, or the Investors. But, that’s based on what I think BOS *should* believe in, or what it says it believes in. I don’t know if that’s what BOS is *actually* about. As you pointed out, we’ve seen that ploy before, and we have ample reason to be all sorts of skeptical.
I’m a “resistance” sort of person, so the assumed ideals of a group like BOS do appeal to my sensibilities. It’s the faction I’m inclined to want to like, on a lizardbrain level. I’m just not sure my rational, human-powered brain has the evidence it needs to come to the same conclusion.August 8, 2017 at 4:11 pm #22029Andrew KaschParticipant
@winstonsmith hit the nail on the head.
I’m the type who will generally align with the rebellious side, but I also need something more to go on than mission cries that consist only of “Burn it down!” (And I actually think if it were called something other than BoS, I wouldn’t be as resistant). I know, I know…new people, new organization, but at least right now the OSDM is the devil I know, as oppose to BoS, which I know virtually nothing about other than some close friends are involved and they hate stuff.
I’m open to listening to whatever side has to say and making my decision accordingly. But I ain’t treating this like a game of Warcraft. I need to have a PASSION for whoever I join.
That said, the OSDM seems to be having Eyes Wide Shut sex parties, while BOS loves… cipher puzzles? Currently, I know where I’d like to spend my nights. 😉
August 8, 2017 at 4:15 pm #22031Lawrence MeyersParticipant
- This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by Andrew Kasch.
@winstonsmith Excellent observations. This circles back to the primary question — the one repeatedly asked of all participants in The Experiences and other shows:
“Why are you here?”
Ruminate on this. I do so frequently. And there’s another unasked question: why are THEY here? The Creators? The hosts?
We are wrapped in a narrative where we cannot tell good from bad, real from fiction, friend from enemy, and as you say, the value is in the struggle. When you feel lost, go back to the central question: why are you here? Are we “fucked”? Then we choose to be by being here. We WANT to get fucked.
It’s all right in front of us. I’ll post it again. Pay very very close attention. Listen to every word. Think about the words chosen. Think about how they talk about the real world, the surface narrative regarding Wyatt, and the underlying narrative of The MiB and Dr. Ford. This is what guides us. Not whether we are fucked or submit, but as Winston says, the struggle.
“They’re not looking for a story that tells them who they are. They already know who they are. They’re here because they want a glimpse of who they could be.”
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