July 27, 2017 at 2:44 pm #20708Andrew KaschParticipant
Can someone, ANYONE, please point me to anything, just one single thing, that shows The System wants to help people rather than just exploit them for money and data and fun?
The answer to your inquiry lays with the man himself: Noah is, I think, a good person. Aggressive as fuck, yes. But good.
Hell, he personally tried to save my dumb ass from falling into the iConfidant trap. He doesn’t know me from Adam.
Thus far, he’s the only REAL person I trust in this.
You say that you have more respect for selfless acts that are unmotivated. Change begins with self-realization and sometimes it takes other people to make you realize that. Good deeds were done today. And that’s very telling.July 27, 2017 at 2:47 pm #20709Winston SmithParticipant
@nothenrygale I agree with that. I’m not saying what he asked you to do was dangerous. I’m saying that any time someone asks you to do something, you should be thinking “Why am I being asked to do this? What is this person’s motivation? Is this in my best interests? What are the consequences of this action going to be, and am I willing to accept them?” Sometimes you have to gamble in life, but winners gamble when the odds are in their favor, not against.
If what you did today is a “failure”, then what makes it a failure? Who did you fail? What’s the mistake? Failure to comply? Failure to confront? Failure to question? Failure to make your own choice? Failure to reach for the high shelf? Why is it presumed that Chelsea, and Buz succeeded, but you failed. You failed to comply. They failed to ask questions. Everyone, or no one failed, depending on each of our individual perspectives. What matters is what *YOU* think about what you did today, not what Noah thinks about it.July 27, 2017 at 2:47 pm #20710
@blondie – I’m viewing this as one of the first actions that The System has actually done in service of its end goal. So far I’ve seen 1: A woman facing her fear and 2: A man being told to act more valiantly. I suspect, even if it’s just a little, Chelsea feels less guarded off now. Step one on this lesson plan has shown that he’s going to make people face their inner demons. That’s a positive start.
Now it’s your turn. What proof do you have that The System is just trying to “take the money and run”?July 27, 2017 at 2:54 pm #20713Lauren BelloParticipant
Can we talk about Noah’s insane double standard?
In Taylor’s “interview,” Noah said, “People respect different things but the truly powerful ultimately wind up respecting threats and challenges, not at first, but with time. It’s a process.”
Yet when challenged by Brad, Noah’s immediate reaction was to revoke Brad’s ticket.
Sounds like by his own standards, Noah’s not truly powerful.July 27, 2017 at 2:56 pm #20714
Have you ever been in a class in which a student didn’t do a project or homework or show up and got kicked because of it? Ever seen a trainer stop working with someone because that person wouldn’t even try? Are the trainer and professor “not truly powerful” as well?
If you signed up for The System, but you aren’t going to do The System, you shouldn’t be in The System.July 27, 2017 at 2:57 pm #20715ChelseaParticipant
Well, I’m still not sure that the goal was to teach me that people don’t suck and make me less guarded. I think the goal was to see if I would do something that I was clearly not OK with and didn’t want to do. Which I did. Brad also did a thing. A very bold thing. And we’ll get to see what happens because of it. All choices have consequences – good, bad, and/or interesting consequences.
Small correction, @thegilded, Buz was not “brought in” to complete it. We were just being dicks. Which “back fired” by getting to be good people for a hot minute, which was pretty great.
Whether or not this was the original plan doesn’t really matter to me. If there was a different plan for Brad, a choice was made on the spot to change it to benefit some strangers. I’m cool with that. If the original plan was a test of sorts and the amended plan was a good deed, does it really matter how we got there? “How dare you do nice things because the bad man told you to!” isn’t really the most rational of arguments.
And @nothenrygale, you know where I stand on Noah being OSDM. Not buying it. 😉July 27, 2017 at 3:00 pm #20716KevinParticipant
Brad could have made Noah try to respect him by flipping the challenge on its head, but instead he opted not to play at all. Other people have gone head first into what Noah has asked them to do and he’s been happy with the results. Trying to change the rules of engagement while not shying away from the task completely may be something that Noah actually respects though.July 27, 2017 at 3:01 pm #20717
@thegilded Exhibit 1:
Noah’s “story” on his website
Choice quotes include “I single handedly removed the board and replaced them with weak-minded but loyal subjects and forged new opportunities that led to record earnings that continue to this day”, “It’s not doing the “right” or “moral” thing” and “It’s about finally realizing how to craft the ancient art of not giving a fuck…”July 27, 2017 at 3:05 pm #20718
@blondie – So Noah’s a dick, and a dick who’s effective and good at business. But if you’re going to imply that “business man” and “mustache twirling villain” are the same because they’re both meanie pants, then that’s a bigger leap than saying something as outlandish as “Tension era BOS was effective at things beyond getting domed to death in sand boxes”July 27, 2017 at 3:06 pm #20719MeganParticipant
OK I’m just now catching up but I have a few thoughts.
First of all Brad please don’t pick up that whip. That’s weird and just…weird.
Second, calling this “grooming” is a little over the top, @winstonsmith and you’re viewing this through a very specific lens which gives you that perspective. Just like I am seeing this whole entire thing from a very DIFFERENT specific perspective, because of my own experience. I could easily call this entire thing something else.
Since ethics in immersive theatre happens to be a current research/writing topic and something I’m really familiar with, I’ve tossed this idea around in my head all night. I also had dinner with three other artists here in Edinburgh, all of whom are immersive theatre creators. None of us thought it was unethical. You’re perfectly within your rights to disagree. But all he was told to do was to go into a store and ask for porn. He had to periscope it, but honestly he didn’t have to periscope THE CLERK, he could have periscoped HIMSELF, right? and never shown the clerk? And that might have even been the more interesting (and difficult) choice. Do you think that clerk has never had to hand over porn before? Probably to a much more unpleasant person, maybe doing unpleasant things? Who knows. No one was going to be hurt by this.
Believe me artists in immersive art have done much, much, MUCH worse than this to the unsuspecting unconsenting public. We are truly prudes in America. I am not saying that you are wrong in wanting their consent, but there are much better hills to die on than this, and you only die on one.
Brad didn’t want to do it and chose to not do it. Period.
We all have choices and there are no wrong choices. He made his. He now gets to pay for it. If you think Chelsea isn’t going to pay for hers in some way I think you’re wrong.
I don’t care about the resistance or the war or whether the System is helping anyone or whether these tasks help anyone. Figure out what it is you lust after and decide if Noah, Joyce, the Resistance, or anyone is offering you a chance at that. Stop making excuses for walking away from what you want.July 27, 2017 at 3:07 pm #20720Lauren BelloParticipant
Have you ever been in a class in which a student didn’t do a project or homework or show up and got kicked because of it? Ever seen a trainer stop working with someone because that person wouldn’t even try?
I think that analogy is flawed. A better analogy might be a trainer who assigned a rigorous set of push-ups but, when asked, couldn’t do any herself.
Noah demands from us that which he himself is incapable of giving.
A more impressive way to respond to this challenge would be to confront Brad in the class. Can you imagine how apprehensive Brad would have been leading up to the event? The real power play would have been to put Brad through the System. Instead, publicly revoking his ticket without bringing himself to respond to the challenge made Noah look frightened.July 27, 2017 at 3:08 pm #20721
@thegilded So as long as everyone buying into The System self-actualises in the end, it’s all good?July 27, 2017 at 3:10 pm #20722July 27, 2017 at 3:13 pm #20724Buz WallickModerator
Instead, publicly revoking his ticket without bringing himself to respond to the challenge made Noah look frightened.
But why waste time on someone who’s already proven they aren’t interested in anything he has to say? Lost cause right there. I saw it as punishing Brad as well as opening up a ticket for someone who actually wants to go.
And is he really incapable of giving what he asks us to give? I don’t think there’s enough evidence to suggest one way or another.July 27, 2017 at 3:19 pm #20725
Sounds like @thegilded doesn’t need The System – he’s already arrived at Noah Town. Fuck everyone that gets hurt along the way as long as the people who can give their time, money and data to The System end up happy. This is only the beginning. You think at the end of all of this, everyone is gonna be sat around, holding hands and thanking Noah for bringing them success and happiness? Hah fucking hah.
I don’t have money to give to The System. I wasn’t “memorable” enough to Sarah Sinclair. I’m 6000 miles away. My life suuuucks, but even if I was able to jump on board that train, I wouldn’t. Because even if a few good things happen along the way, I doubt anyone is going to see all that Noah promises come to any kind of fruition.
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